Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Magister Militum »

I don't know, this all seems so... uncomfortable for me. Eh, it's really up to you guys, it's just that I still see no real benefit towards going this route. I mean, I'm pretty sure that Britain would still get the same amount of recognition that it did in real-life, anyways.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Ford Prefect »

SiegeTank wrote:In my opinion it is totally cliché, and -but that's an entirely personal note- I personally just plain don't like Mecha. It's not a point I feel like pushing particularly hard but I think that we, being the creative geniuses that we are, could come up with something better than Mecha for the Japanese.
Though I really, really like mecha, and have used them in Things Might Get Trippy, I have to agree with Siege here. I don't think that Imperial Japan should respond to the advanced technology of other nations by constructing mecha, just because Japan of real life today is known for mecha. In the context of OZ Comix!, it is the British or Americans who would be most associated with mecha, given they were the first to build them. It really is a cliche, and one that I don't think can really be leveraged for much interesting in WWII.
What I'd personally like to see is the Emperor's top generals as men of such indomitable will that they become effectively metahuman nexi of power. I see it as a bit like a hybrid of Jedi battle meditation and your typical ninja elementalist, perhaps akin to those funky generals Ford's nation used to have in the ill-fated OZ-Nations RPG.
This is in line with what Invictus and I were discussing. I suggested that the Japanese generally counter more advanced technology with pure martial courage. A suggestion was that some of their generals be reincarnations of people like Tokugawa Ieyasu with superhuman grasps of asymetrical warfare and unconventional methods of winning (ie. katana > tank because of COURAGE). Another suggestion was that the attrition rates of Japanese pilots being a Darwinian process that would be turning their pilots into Newtypes. Saburo Sakai and friends as psuedo-telepathic aces with ultra-senstive spatial awareness, as an example.
Who doesn't like to see admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as a tsunami-spawning force of nature? I mean, that would go a pretty long way to explaining how the Japanese got as far as they did...
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Siege wrote:Wait, how the hell do the Germans get their hands on depleted uranium by WW2? DU is a by-product of uranium enrichment, you know. If they have sufficient quantities of DU to use it in tank rounds, they ought to have enough U-235 to build nuclear bombs as well.
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Aw mang, that was a boner. How about tungsten instead? :)

Aha, TEFLON COATED TANK ROUNDS! :lol:


EDIT :

As for the proto-nuke, does the British Metal Gear actually get to USE its nuclear bomb before Soldier destroys it and the facility it was built in?

No... so if the British Metal Gear Tripod didn't get to use its proto-nuke, then that can leave things ambiguous. Would the proto-nuke have really made a sub-kiloton explosion? No one can know, since it ended up getting blown up anyway.

It's like Metal Gear. Would those silly walking robots have been capable of launching ICBMs and whacky stealth railgun nukes from their guns? I don't know, they never had a chance to launch since Snake blew them up before they could.

Hypothetically, the proto-nuke could've made a HUEG explosion. But practically, Soldier ruined its shit before anyone could've found out. :mrgreen:

Still, that doesn't mean the proto-nukes will be a total non-threat. You'll have Colonel Campbell telling you how important it is to stop those nukes and how Secretary Houseman is threatening to send the RAF to bomb Shadow Moses at any time if Soldier fails to destroy the Metal Gear Tripod.



Can we still have the Submersible Yamatos? :D

And I agree. Imperial Japan should've had a whole cadre of Grand Admiral Thrawns.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Mobius 1 »

As hillarious as Tamed Kaiju are (and trust me, I think they're freaking awesome), isn't the point of Kaijus, all the way back to Gojira, King of Monsters, that they're mutanoids created by atomic testing? Which there won't be much of before the bombs start being tested. It's a huge Japanese cultural thing that today is a pop-culture phenomenon, sure.

On the other hand, this can, of course, be easily circumvented. Martians being the progenitus of a lot of the weird shit in OZC, one can easily say spaaaaaaace radiation from Mars mutated the Kaiju.

My only thought is that, in the end, Kaiju shouldn't be gigantoid mutanoids (I'm almost beating Shroom in making up words) that just come out the blue- they should have some suitable "origin" behind them. I personally like the original cultural origin, which is, as mentioned above, a metaphor for atom bombs and testing and stuff.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

King Ghidora came from space, Mothra is summoned by tiny twin fairy girls, Rhodan is a dinosaur, I don't know about Anguirus, and quite a few others weren't radiation-caused.

I'm such a nerd.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Mobius 1 »

You kinda missed my point there, Shroom. :) I'm sure it's more diverse once they became a pop culture phenomenon, sure. Fairies and 'fell from outer spaaaaace' are not the origins Kaiju need.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus »

Er, as far back as old OZ I wrote that a lot of the giant Kaiju are spawned by extra-large Crosspoints (and it is part of the Dreamlands article). I feel it makes sense since radioactive mutations would be a stretch (unless nukes explode in the Pacific that often) and I doubt stuff enough to survive all the way to Earth keeps falling that often either. Afterall, if kaiju become a regular enough nuisance to warrant the creation of NAKAIDO, then there have to be a significant number of them of varying sizes. Plus, we don't have to try and explain how those things "evolved" in Earth's biosphere (which would be hard-pressed to support creatures that huge, even in crazy Comix!Earth). Having most of them spawn from some alternate universe where the laws of existence are not based on any sort of fixed logic would be easier, and it is established that Crosspoints spawn fairly often enough.

'Course, I'm not saying they all come from Crosspoints. Maybe some are from mutations and some from space, but for the majority I think that "coming from an alternate dimension that regularly intersects Earth" is sufficient origin. But, of course, this 'verse is dependent on consensus. If we decide to change that, it's fine by me.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Then there's Weird Island. But I think "traditional" Kaiju would've learned to avoid that fucked up place.


Hrm... maybe the Japanese could've had mecha in a sense that they weren't giant kung fu robots but more... bipedal versions of those American Civil War Giant Mechanical Spiders. They would lumber and breathe fire and shoot cannons and shit, like giant brutish mechanical kaiju. Moar like clash of the Titans shit.

They'd lie and wait inland for the American troopers to discover to their own peril, and if they go to shore they get blown up by battleships out at sea and all that. Imagine, US Marines acting like Jason and the Argonauts being chased by giant stop-motion mecha with Japs on machinegun nests on its shoulders!
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Ford Prefect »

Or Imperial Japan could just not have mecha at all, thus completely avoiding the cliche. They don't need fictional weapon systems - they came up with enough of their own that did not get fielded. Why don't we use those?
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Sure. How about the Submersible Yamatos? :mrgreen:
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Vagrant Orpheus »

I'd like to see a tech evolution from that, Shroom. Submersible Yamatos > Supercavitating subs > Amphibeous supercavitating jetsubs. That'd be awesome. Empire!

Which reminds me, did we ever make any decision on supercavitating subs? I know Ford wanted Saintly Concerns to make them, but then Ford attempts to monopolise on just about anything with military applications :P

Seriously though, if they don't come through, then the USS Angelus is the perfect counterpart for an Arsenal Gear. I don't want any Mount Snakemore or anything stupid like that.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus »

I did write down NAKAIDO and SDI subs having supercavitating torps in This is Some Party. But their drive system is magneto-hydrodynamic, not supercavitating. And I'm not too hot on the idea of subs themselves being supercavitating. Subs are supposed to be quiet and sneaky, and something powering through the water at well over a hundred knots with some sort of bubble of air around it is gonna be noisy and very VERY visible to enemy sonar. Plus, how will it see through the water? With the supercavitation bubble, active sonar can't send or receive pings properly and passive sonar will be essentially deaf from the flow noise at those speeds. Maybe a sensor could project from the nose like some designs for supercav torps, but that means the sub would only "see" out the front. Then there's the issue of what traveling those speeds in shallower areas with lots of obstacles, especially if they have a reduced "field of view".

Of course, if the supercavitation is only used for quick sprints in open ocean (maybe to get away from enemies; or perhaps to gain initial thrust for flight if it's also a flying sub) and the rest of the time just the plain old super-quiet magneto-hydrodynamic drives, then I wouldn't object too much since that's the only useful application I can see for an entire sub supercavitating.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

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Maybe they could use supercavitation to attain RAMMING SPEED!

Then they would use their drills to destroy the kaiju! Yeah! It would be the latest in NAKAIDO anti-kaiju weaponry! RAMMING SPEED!

It would also be useful if the kaiju is too goddamn tough. RUN AWAY!



What's wrong with mecha, anyhow? My concept of WWII Japanese mecha would be something very ungainly and ugly, lumbering and hulking. With its face resembling those Japanese samurai masks. It would be more like an Imperial Titan than a Gundam-type mech, though (but not as HUEG). With its gait, and the cannons on its shoulders and hands. Maybe a really big sword that doesn't do anything...

Imperial Japan would have Imperial Titans! HUEG walkers used to scare the living shit out of the Chinese and the Filipinos! :lol:

MacArthur would blow one up on the Philippine shores before landing.

Come on, it's not too bad. You guys said that Tripod-type walking machines would be cool to occasionally appear in World War Weird, and this is what the thing basically is. Sure, it's bipedal, but that's okay. It's an Imperial Titan, not a Gundam-mecha. And with its Imperial Titan hulking form, it could have banners atop of its back, with the Imperial Japanese flag and stuff.

These things would have loads of machine gun nests on its body.

I like the idea of American soldiers encountering it inland and running for their lives, ala Clash of the Titans or Jason and the Argonauts or something. They'd run for the shores, where the battleships could blast the thing to pieces.

A Japanese commander could ride it and use the megaphones to scream shit like: "DISHONORABLE HUMAN GAIJIN!" and stuff!
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

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Vagrant Orpheus wrote:I know Ford wanted Saintly Concerns to make them
I've mentioned the Endymions in the same sentence as the supercavitating jetsubs from the failed CGI series Empire, but the Endymions are propelled by mathematics, and don't need to be supercavitating in the traditional sense.
What's wrong with mecha, anyhow?
Because it's a tired cliche that Japan = mecha. There's no ACTUAL REASON for the Imperial Japanese to develope robots: culturally speaking,t he Japanese did not start producing giant robots for entertainment until after World War II - prior to that they were not known for robots. You mention tripods showing up, but the British capturing tripods and reverse engineering their workings makes a hell of a lot more sense than and is completely different to the Japanese people of the thirties and forties building giant robots based upon nothing more than a convenient stereotype that exists in the modern day.

It's not about the technology, it's about making use of a modern, real world cliche. Literally no application of mecha will be able to avoid this, because the cliche itself is 'Japan uses machines with legs'.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I can't believe you of all people are saying that!


But Submersible Yamatos are alright, right? :mrgreen:
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Heretic »

Personal Flying Apparatus: I believe that one Skyhaven guy came up with a flight harness, but it only worked for exceptionally light people, like him with his hollow bones.
Seeing this, I can't help but ask what purpose the Wright Brothers have in this mind-boggling and complex universe.

Also, I think Imperial Japan should focus high-tech airplanes. I mean, the Zeros were a marvel of the day. Mechas came after we (speaking in my Japanese blood) dropped our guns and started doing wacko things with animation. In my view, mechas are fine, but not in WWII. And, I would like maybe some small arms that aren't malfunctioning all the time.

Edit: Concerning the small arms sentence, the army had some shitty nightmares of guns. While the Americans had maintenance friendly machine guns that fired for two minutes or so, the Japanese had type 99 or 96 machine guns that were a nightmare in the tropical jungle, and only shot about as much clips as an AR-15 (this may be inaccurate, which in that case I must dive into a reclusive retreat and go back to my studies of Japanese military, the only thing I know a squat about :ugeek: )
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The Wright Brothers created a "living" and thinking mechanical flying machine that ran on burning coal. These large mechanical birds were then used in World War 1.

The Flyer.

Perhaps aside from the Flyer, the Wrights were also like Doc Brown "READY SET RELEASE!" type of dudes with all SORTS of incredible invented flying machines. Like (Reverse!) Flying Wings, and stuff. Though the details don't have to be specified.

Sort of like the Wrong Brothers in that I Am Weasel cartoon.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus »

Heretic wrote:Also, I think Imperial Japan should focus high-tech airplanes. I mean, the Zeros were a marvel of the day.
Just a little misconception correction. Zeroes were only a marvel in that the Japanese did everything they could to strip down the Zero in weight. It had very thin and light aluminum skin and sometimes didn't even carry radios. This gave it great range, speed, and maneuverability... at the cost of ruggedness. Shots that would've only inconvenienced the better-armored American planes would've been sufficient to kill the Zero. Also, it had poor dive speed since if it tried to do a power dive like American planes the sheer G forces involved would cause its light and fragile frame to fail. The final nail in the coffin were its engines. By the standards of nearly every other major player in WW2, they were woefully underpowered. The only reason the Zero went as fast as it could with its engines I already stated above. When America introduced the Hellcat, with a veritable powerhouse for an engine, the Zero lost its edge in speed and the gap in maneuverability closed. It pretty much became mere cannon fodder when up against the Hellcat.

The only reason if it even has the reputation of being a super-fighter in WW2 was because the first planes the Americans sent against it were Wildcats, and those were already relatively obsolete by the time Pearl Harbor happened. By the time American industry got their industry turned toward war production and produced aircraft with better engines, the Zeros were doomed. Especially since the Japanese lacked the proper industry to match American production, and they had very little to devote to developing new aircraft. They tried to make copies of the veritable German Messerschmitt Bf 109 (which were better aircraft in the sense that they didin't have to make the dangerous design compromises the Zeros did), but those were very few and far between. Given what was discussed prior, I don't think even Comix Imperial Japan would have the industrial base to produce uber-fighters anyway.

But, hey, don't take my word for it. Wiki up Zero, Wildcat, and Hellcat for yourself.

Okay, semi-rant done. The "uber-Zero" thing just really gets to me for some reason.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The Japanistani Zeroes in Comix could've had sharpened wings with which to tear enemy planes apart!

Like when the firebombings of Japanistan started, they would've resorted to air-to-air kamikazes!
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus »

Considering the light and relatively frail airframe of the Zeros, that silly wing-blade thing is a bad idea. The stresses involved in such a maneuver would cause the wings to shear off after striking the target. Even with other contemporary planes that would've still been a bad idea.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

How about giving Zeroes X-Wing like S-foils so that after they lose a wing, they can "lock their S-foils in attack formation" and kill other planes with the remaining wings? :lol:

Maybe we should stick with awesome dogfighting rocketplanes that explode upon kamikaze-impact.

Oh yeah. This talk about Japanistani fighter planes reminds me of the film Empire of the Sun starring child actor Christian Bale as a shell-shocked child interred in a camp in Japanese-occupied China. He befriended a Japanese boy who was trained to be a child fighter pilot. Then the boy got shot and died in a rice paddy.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus »

Actually, the more I think about it the more I'm liking Siege's idea for the Japanese not having superior technology, but instead having some commanders and soldiers being able to do funky shit due to sheer willpower and ki or charka or whatever.

Or if we go with the earlier idea of Admiral Yamamoto being able to generate mini-tsunamis or whatever, then maybe Minoru Genda has some sort of funky Sith battle-meld shtick going on that allows him to lend unnatural aerial coordinations to his pilots or whatever. Maybe famous Japanese ace Saburo Sakai could influence some of the air around his fighter and use it to do wind attacks or somesuch freaky shit.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Maybe it shouldn't really be touched upon too much in details, but rather mentioned in a way like how "when Kim Jong Il screams there are storms!" or something.

Like how, despite not going into detail, the Black Pearl was the only ship that could go toe to toe with the Flying Dutchman or something. Like, inexplicable speed due to the sheer fighting spirit of ten thousand angry Japanese sailors shoveling unnecessary amounts of coal into the Yamato's engines, or the kamikaze flights descending for revenge and accompanied by the divine wind in the form of waterspouts in the Pacific war, and the Navy conjuring up maelstroms out of sheer badassery and Okinawa and Iwo Jima having the Japanistanis screaming in fury and causing the sky to fall down on the advancing American GIs and Marines!

A whole lot of inexplicable things! Unexplained volcanism! Meteors! Tidal waves! GIANT MONSTERS!

A bit like General Winter in the Eastern Front. But worse.

If the power of MANLINESS does in fact exist in Comix, as evidenced by the Gladiators and stuff, then maybe the Japanistani people could've subconsciously tapped into it to become ten million times more badass than they should've had any right to be.

Of course, America still owned their asses! FUCK YEAH!
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Ford Prefect »

Hello! I had ideas about Japan as well! :P
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Oh shit, I said basically what you said also!

But that's good. At least we are in agreement.

Shit, this Saburo Sakai guy was a total hardass!
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