Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Heretic » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:27 pm

Well, the Zero was a hit and run paper plane, but wouldn't you say that they were a marvel When they were made in 1937? I mean, they were the best carrier plane in the world (quoted from Wikipedia). A bit of an upgrade from Shroom's list of bizarre gadgets, and it would be compatible with the other stuff the other nations have. I mean dude, what made it so that the White people can have all the ridiculous stuff while it stopped when it comes to the humble Japanese:lol: ? I'm not asking for war robots or Tesla/napalm/nuclear Panzers, I'm just asking for some planes that would at least not turn to shreds when going against the things you guys came up with on the Allied side.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the Japanese doing Chi stuff. I mean, that is almost as stereotypical as the mechas. Now, a small occult sect in the State Shinto religion would be awesome, but I have a feeling you guys are doing something a bit more obvious. I'm fine with that as long as you fix some small arms issues. Maybe making a weapon similar to the Browning, or at least a pimped out Arisaka.

Anywho, I guess the ballsiness of the Japanese army in the midst of the superior firepower Americans would be awesome, touching the line of Warhammer 40k (anyone up for officers destroying GMC tank destroyers with only Katanas and their riceballs?)
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:45 am

Compared to other aircraft in 1937, yes it was a marvel of sorts. But 1937 isn't 1943, and this isn't about give the White people the good stuff while give the Japanese zip. I was merely stating the industrial and economic difference between the Japanese Empire and the USA in real life. You need to have a powerful industrial base to ensure that you'll keep pumping out "marvels" rather than have them become obsolete less than a decade later. If we keep that in Comix WW2 (which, based on previous discussion, we probably will), then Japan can't hope to compete technologically.

Fine, we adjust for the tech acceleration in Comix. So maybe they'll have more of those newer, better designs like the Hien, which was inspired by the venerable Bf 109 rather than the relatively scant few in real life. Maybe stuff like these wen't further than prototype stage. But then, so what? Given the same adjustment for the US, then the venerable Hellcat and the P-51 Mustang (pretty much the F-22 of WW2) will likely have been introduced sooner too. Which means that the Zero will be robbed of being the holy terror it was in the early stages of the war and will be seen as cannon fodder throughout. Sorry, mate, but industry and economy go a long way in backing up the development of technological wonders.

Hence, we'll have to find some other way for them to compete with an industrially-superior enemy with more money to throw into their military. What better way to do that than essentially make some Japanese military guys metahuman, and explain that away as the metahuman boom happening much sooner in Japan than in the US (which, IIRC, happened around the 70s)? I mean, it's not like it's that weird in this 'verse. As for the whole being "stereotypical" in the usage of chi/ki/whatever, look at it from a cultural perspective. The abilities could easily be psychic abilities of some sort (which are not limited to national lines), it's just that the Japanese of WW2 might attribute such abilities to Ki or something rather than psychic energy. And, well, given the description of both they're not that different. All you have essentially is a difference in nomenclature.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Heretic » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:09 am

Well, I was just asking a bit of a more advanced plane. I do understand the industrial situation of Japan at that time. An advanced Hien is fine with me.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:29 pm

I say we go with FROD's super-suggestion.

The Japanistanis of World War Two were simply really angry and thus particularly badass.

Maybe the Japanese Emperor could've had some kind of REAL divinity - in the form of focusing the raw collective badass of his followers and shit. I read the wiki of Saburo Sakai - goddamn, an army of twelve of him would rule all of Asia. :twisted:
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Heretic » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:53 pm

Let me restate my last statement (didn't fully comprehend Malachus's full paragraph, being my brain was groggy). Ok, so if we do make a more advanced airplane, that would just cause the US to push its other prototypes further? And even if the Japanese made alot of uber planes, the Americans will always be on top?

And that's why the Japanese should have metahumans? Well, I'm fine with that, but like what type of metahumans? I can't really stand those Yuriko Omega types from Red Alert 3, nor any ninjas robots or anything. Maybe a special training regime is built to enhance each soldier's Chi (yes, I really believe that), making them a bit more resistant to pain, better accuracy, and all that shit . That would make it cool then, with regular farmer conscripts beating the crap out of whatever land battleships America might have.

And dude, Shroom, Tetsuzō Iwamoto can easily outball Sakaki. Still, I loved your wing bladed Zero idea. If anyone is enough to terrify a country by himself, it would be Hiroo Onoda. Hell, any straggler from after the war terrorized whatever island they were in.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Magister Militum » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:08 pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I say we go with FROD's super-suggestion.

The Japanistanis of World War Two were simply really angry and thus particularly badass.

Maybe the Japanese Emperor could've had some kind of REAL divinity - in the form of focusing the raw collective badass of his followers and shit. I read the wiki of Saburo Sakai - goddamn, an army of twelve of him would rule all of Asia. :twisted:
It's gotta suck for him, then, after MacArthur totally humbled the Japanese Emperor an turned him into a mere figurehead. ;)
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Invictus » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:14 pm

Heretic wrote:Let me restate my last statement (didn't fully comprehend Malachus's full paragraph, being my brain was groggy). Ok, so if we do make a more advanced airplane, that would just cause the US to push its other prototypes further? And even if the Japanese made alot of uber planes, the Americans will always be on top?

And that's why the Japanese should have metahumans? Well, I'm fine with that, but like what type of metahumans? I can't really stand those Yuriko Omega types from Red Alert 3, nor any ninjas robots or anything. Maybe a special training regime is built to enhance each soldier's Chi (yes, I really believe that), making them a bit more resistant to pain, better accuracy, and all that shit . That would make it cool then, with regular farmer conscripts beating the crap out of whatever land battleships America might have.
Let's put it this way. Siege and others have agreed that no matter what kind of additions we make to the real-world timeline of Comix, history stays roughly the same. Therefore, if Western technology was so much further ahead in Comix than RL (Martian salvage, French clockwork, Teslatech, Skyhavenite geniuses and so on) and Japan remains relatively unchanged, then the Pacific War wouldn't have happened the way it did (that is, initial Japanese gains followed by a grueling American victory). Japan, quite simply, needs a powerup to keep Comix history the same shape as ours. It doesn't have to be more advanced technology either.

And your ideas are touching upon the solution Ford and I have been discussing, so I might as well bring it up here instead of in some future Axis Commandos profile. Japan didn't explicitly have metahumans per se, but it had a certain nebulous kind of...badassity. Remember, this is a country which centuries ago still had people practicing physics-defying martial arts, and whose gods may well actually exist. And unlike China, Japan's relatively peaceful modernization in the early 20th century means that quite a lot of this will survive. With the Imperial regime's pretense to tradition, the state mobilization of any of these assets is a given.

And in my imagination, MacArthur did have to issue something like an "Anti-Ninja Statue" that finally broke the power of the old martial families.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Ford Prefect » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:43 pm

Heretic wrote:I'm a bit uncomfortable with the Japanese doing Chi stuff. I mean, that is almost as stereotypical as the mechas.
While it is stereotypical, qi is not especially offensive or unlikely, given it is established as having existed and having been used for millenia in the east. That said, it's not likely that the existence of qi or martial arts practioners would be the core of Japan's 'upgraded' warmachine.
Siege and others have agreed that no matter what kind of additions we make to the real-world timeline of Comix, history stays roughly the same.
Err, I'm fairly sure that's wrong. Siege is the strongest proponent of history not being sacrosanct, and I agree. History is already completely different, and WWII only has to vaguely fit with the events of real thing. IE. there were Allies, there was an Axis, strategic targets are not especially different and so on.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Magister Militum » Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:58 am

Ford Prefect wrote:
Siege and others have agreed that no matter what kind of additions we make to the real-world timeline of Comix, history stays roughly the same.
Err, I'm fairly sure that's wrong. Siege is the strongest proponent of history not being sacrosanct, and I agree. History is already completely different, and WWII only has to vaguely fit with the events of real thing. IE. there were Allies, there was an Axis, strategic targets are not especially different and so on.
Actually, to be really nitpickey, History has been altered to the point where the modern world as we know it (and, to a lesser extent, Comix! Earth) should be very different in terms of nations. Remember that theAncien Régime never fell, so there was no Napoleon taking power and, more importantly, no Napoleonic Wars. That, of course, means that Nationalism never spread to Europe, and the reforms passed by Napoleon in French-ruled Europe, which permanently altered their establishments, never occured. Of course, Siege was already aware of this when he decided to keep Monarchist France (I would imagine so, anyways), and probably has something up his sleeve to rectify it.

My point is, though, that it's only natural that history in Comix! is going to be changed around. That's how it's been for a while, and, as long as nothing too bizarre occurs, there's no real problem.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:35 am

Heretic wrote:And dude, Shroom, Tetsuzō Iwamoto can easily outball Sakaki. Still, I loved your wing bladed Zero idea. If anyone is enough to terrify a country by himself, it would be Hiroo Onoda. Hell, any straggler from after the war terrorized whatever island they were in.
Heretic wrote:And dude, Shroom, Tetsuzō Iwamoto can easily outball Sakaki.
Heretic wrote:Sakaki
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Anyway, my dickery aside, I still have to voice my dislike of that bladed-wing fighter idea. Despite the Rule of Cool points, aircraft frames are not that hardy (especially the lightweight Zero). The wing specifically should not be introduced to the kind of structural stress essentially ramming it into another aircraft would entail, even with a bladed edge to push it through the whole thing. That kind of tactic would just result in the bladed-fighter's wing snapping off. Not all that impressive a weapon of war.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Mobius 1 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:17 am

As someone who has blade-winged fighters in his own verse, let me tell you they're just as ridiculous in face as in the world war two era, where we don't have handwavium and rule of cool on steroids to explain this one away. By the time you've managed to get close enough to preform a wing-slice (something that is fairly impossible), they would have shot you dead a half dozen times.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:01 pm

Heretic wrote:Let me restate my last statement (didn't fully comprehend Malachus's full paragraph, being my brain was groggy). Ok, so if we do make a more advanced airplane, that would just cause the US to push its other prototypes further? And even if the Japanese made alot of uber planes, the Americans will always be on top?
America has always been on top. The American advantage in tech and in industrial infrastructure means that the Axis powers - Japan, Italy and Germany - never had a chance once Uncle Sam got brought in.
And that's why the Japanese should have metahumans? Well, I'm fine with that, but like what type of metahumans?
Invictus wrote:And your ideas are touching upon the solution Ford and I have been discussing, so I might as well bring it up here instead of in some future Axis Commandos profile. Japan didn't explicitly have metahumans per se, but it had a certain nebulous kind of...badassity. Remember, this is a country which centuries ago still had people practicing physics-defying martial arts, and whose gods may well actually exist. And unlike China, Japan's relatively peaceful modernization in the early 20th century means that quite a lot of this will survive. With the Imperial regime's pretense to tradition, the state mobilization of any of these assets is a given.
This.

Just think of it as using kung-fu and fanaticism and Emperor-worship and super special sushi diets to turn the Imperial Japanese Army into an army of Badass Normals that would've given American GIs badass roundhouse kicks.
And in my imagination, MacArthur did have to issue something like an "Anti-Ninja Statue" that finally broke the power of the old martial families.
MacArthur must be a total fucker. Or, at least, more so than real life. :D
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Ford Prefect » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:29 pm

Do keep in mind that Japan probably did have actual metahumans in WWII, like basically every other nation in involved.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:48 pm

I did have in mind some Samurai Speedster who had a sacred samurai sword, cleaving battleships while walking on water really fast and stuff. It is still there. In my brain.

But we were talking about things on general terms, right? On the more frequently used advanced techs and stuffs.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Siege » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:08 pm

Ford Prefect wrote:Do keep in mind that Japan probably did have actual metahumans in WWII, like basically every other nation in involved.
Which Allied metas were active during WW2? I know Britannic was tearing through Nazi bunkers at D-Day, and probably did some heavy lifting with the Desert Rats, who else was there?
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Magister Militum » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:37 am

The only other ones that actually come to mind are Soldier and Goldstein and his men, although none of them are actually metahumans.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Malchus » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:47 am

There's also Shroom's Avenging Aryan. And didn't you guys discuss having Hitler and Stalin doing some funky magical duel?

EDIT: Gah, it took me until now to see that it specified ALLIED metas. Jesus Hubert Christ, I must be going blind. :?
Last edited by Malchus on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Ford Prefect » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:23 am

SiegeTank wrote:
Ford Prefect wrote:Do keep in mind that Japan probably did have actual metahumans in WWII, like basically every other nation in involved.
Which Allied metas were active during WW2? I know Britannic was tearing through Nazi bunkers at D-Day, and probably did some heavy lifting with the Desert Rats, who else was there?
It's just a statistically reasonable assumption. They do not even have to be as big name as Sir Uther or the Axis Commandos; given the level of mobilisation, there would have to be metahumans fighting in the war. There were millions of soldiers fighting in WWII, I'm sure you could probably tell me how many millions, a percentage of 2% or less of those would be metahuman.
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Siege » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:52 pm

Ford Prefect wrote:It's just a statistically reasonable assumption.
Obviously. Reason I'm asking is that I'm working on putting together a list of names for what'll be a predecessor to RACKET. This organization would have been active at least since the late 19th century, through WW1 and WW2, until the formation of RACKET in the fifties. If we'd established any names already I could've taken them into account, but apparently we haven't.

(I've a few names so far, but almost all of the members got killed during WW1.)
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Re: Regarding technological capabilities of various eras

Post by Invictus » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:02 pm

I don't think we *have* other extant out-and-out metahumans from the WWII era, except maybe for Definitiveguy. Metahumans, as in people with what we think of now as superpowers, wouldn't have been as common back then considering their numbers didn't start to explode until the 70s. There would have been plenty of "specially talented" people like Dan MacThunder and friends running around though, but I'm not sure if they count. It looks like we need to create a few.
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