(MOAR) Mad Ideas!

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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Kamin997 wrote:
I'm not exactly filling up Comix, am I?
No, you are not.

You're filling up Omniverse One. With Germanians.
All it is is one character, not exactly a German World Empire. All that I'm trying to do is make it so that Germany gets more than a bunch of supervillains and a wacky bouncy guy in lederhosen. If it helps you, my next character will be British. And what Japanese empires? I have precisely one Japanese character in Comix, and he's a villain.
Tthe vast majority of things you write in Worldbuilding and Literature has resurgent Germanians alt-histing or Japanese Empires. I'm not talking about just your Comix creation, I'm talking about the rather similar things you post in the rest of O1 over and over again. It's always ze Germans.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Czernobog »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Kamin997 wrote:
I'm not exactly filling up Comix, am I?
No, you are not.

You're filling up Omniverse One. With Germanians.
I am not intending to. All I want to do is give Germany a superhero other than a bouncy guy in lederhosen, one that's actually serious, because Germany is under-represented in anything other than supervillains.

All it is is one character, not exactly a German World Empire. All that I'm trying to do is make it so that Germany gets more than a bunch of supervillains and a wacky bouncy guy in lederhosen. If it helps you, my next character will be British. And what Japanese empires? I have precisely one Japanese character in Comix, and he's a villain.
Tthe vast majority of things you write in Worldbuilding and Literature has resurgent Germanians alt-histing or Japanese Empires. I'm not talking about just your Comix creation, I'm talking about the rather similar things you post in the rest of O1 over and over again. It's always ze Germans.
I've stopped posting those things, and it isn't as if I'm forcing you to look at them. And what Japanese Empires? I have only one story featuring them, and it stopped a while ago. I don't intend to fill O1 with Germany at all. I'm sorry if it seems that way, however.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Maybe I was just having a prematurely panicked reflex reaction, upon thinking that I was seeing more generic German guys.

I'll leave the floor to speaker and the others.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Czernobog »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Maybe I was just having a prematurely panicked reflex reaction, upon thinking that I was seeing more generic German guys.

I'll leave the floor to speaker and the others.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

I see the idea of giving every country a personification in this way as being kind of limiting, and brings up questions about why every country doesn't have one, unless every country is going to have one, which brings up questions about how long a country has to exist to have one and so on.

Obviously there's plenty of precedents in Comix for people being empowered by abstracts, to name three there's General Winter, the Communist Manifester and St Anthony the Machinist, so I can't argue with the idea in principle, however I think the idea works better if the process by which people get these ideas is left a bit more vague and the origin stories a bit more complex and a bit more fitting. For instance I like General Winter's origin story because the way he gets selected is in the course of grimly fighting against the Nazi horde even when it's cold enough to freeze piss in motion and so on, which fits with what's empowering him, the stalwart resistance of the Motherland. I don't like the American Crusader's so much because charging a machinegun nest is a bit generic, compare to Captain America, who gets his superpowers because he really really wants to fight the good fight despite his own shortcomings, that's both patriotism and this American ideal about achieving your goals against all odds.

Am I making sense?

So I think this isn't a bad idea but I think it becomes a bit dull if we just say 'every country has a champion who it selects to represent its consciousness in the world,' I think that every character you do create in this mould has to have some specific traits about them that fit with the ideals they're embodying. Looking at Germania over in Character Concepts, I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure how she or her origin story embody the ideals of Germany, whatever they are (ruthless efficiency, presumably ;) )
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Siege »

Kamin997 wrote:I am not intending to.
Yes, you do.
All I want to do is give Germany a superhero other than a bouncy guy in lederhosen, one that's actually serious, because Germany is under-represented in anything other than supervillains.
This is entirely the wrong base to start from. To begin with "OMG X nation is underrepresented" is the height of folly. A character concept should not be linked to a given nation in such a way unless you're aiming for hardcore nationalism, which we aren't in Comix, so I'm sticking with 'height of folly' for the time being.

When you say "all I want to do is give Germany a superhero..." you are operating off the wrong parameters. Who the flying fuck cares if a hero is German or French or British or American? What really matters if the hero fits in a narrative. If he doesn't, then it's a shitty concept. If he does, then what does it matter what nationality he's from?
speaker-to-trolls wrote:Vic tells me that the Tellurian's host/secret identity is British, but I'm not sure if you could reliably expect him to turn up to meetings, and as the Tellurian he doesn't owe any special loyalty to Britain.
He could have a place in the club but almost never make use of it. That works for me: especially since it opens the way for sudden shifts of power/influence in case he DOES show up on a meeting and makes his presence known.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Invictus »

That works for me. Although the Tellurian's host wants nothing in particular to do with Britain in order to preserve his secret identity, he might may more attention to the country simply out of habit. With the recent spate of magical supervillainry in Britain tied to the rise of Ominous Rex, I wouldn't be suprised if he started using his seat.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

First off, Kamin, yeah, what Siege said, starting out from the standpoint of 'I need to give Germany equal representation,' isn't a good way to start making a character. In the same way I desperately want to create some African heroes because I feel like I'm doing Africans a disservice by filling the place with voodoo warlords, but I haven't made any yet because I don't have a good story to go with them. If you can give Kapitan Deutschland a compelling backstory that's great, but I'd say don't just start out to even things up between Germany and the world.
Invictus wrote: That works for me. Although the Tellurian's host wants nothing in particular to do with Britain in order to preserve his secret identity, he might may more attention to the country simply out of habit. With the recent spate of magical supervillainry in Britain tied to the rise of Ominous Rex, I wouldn't be suprised if he started using his seat.
That seems reasonable, though it raises another question for me, how long has the Tellurian been active and how long have OR's minions been causing noticeable trouble in the world? I mean I have Artos the Omen starting his rampages in 1998 but I also have Quinn being around since at least the late 1980s. I'm just wondering because it seems that an increase in magical shenanigans which might draw his attention could cause him to work more closely with Gargoyle, which could lead to him getting a seat, but I'm not sure around which time this would be likely to happen.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Invictus »

speaker-to-trolls wrote:That seems reasonable, though it raises another question for me, how long has the Tellurian been active and how long have OR's minions been causing noticeable trouble in the world? I mean I have Artos the Omen starting his rampages in 1998 but I also have Quinn being around since at least the late 1980s. I'm just wondering because it seems that an increase in magical shenanigans which might draw his attention could cause him to work more closely with Gargoyle, which could lead to him getting a seat, but I'm not sure around which time this would be likely to happen.
You know, that's a good question. I've always assumed that the Tellurian started operating rather recently, but then he needs to have been active for a fair bit before 1998 to build up enough street cred to earn a chair in the club by that time. If Artos the Omen (whose date of emergence is fine - I left the timescale of Ominous Rex's return deliberately vague) was the first major incident where the Tellurian crossed paths with Gargoyle, it makes him look a bit like a single-issue wonk who only cares about a threat nobody else is savvy to, which isn't what he should be. The Tellurian is not even a wizard (strictly speaking, he is more of a shaman) and the integrity of global leyline flows is far from his only concern.

Of course, maybe the Fall of Artos was the first time where the Tellurian came across as more than yet another cape to the relevant authorities and they haven't played well together ever since. But the issue of his working relationship with the British government is a distinct one from the issue of his age. I haven't thought of him as having been active for more than a decade and frankly it makes him a bit older than I thought he would be. But well, I can play with that as a complication to his secret identity - maybe his civilian self is not aging as it should be.

An important question BTW: what did Gargoyle do with the Omen-Tor after Arthur's departure?
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

Ah, I'd assumed that the Tellurian had been active during the Damask invasion and at Mogar's first fight with Archwind, both of which I think are supposed to have happened in the 90s, and both of which would have gotten him a lot of credibility (though not with the stuff Gargoyle concerns itself with.) I had assumed he'd been around as long as Archwind, really, but then I don't remember the original article very well.

Maybe the Tellurian kind of muscled his way into the Hard Scrapes Club using his international prestige and the fact that, frankly, a man imbued with all the powers of the Earth is kind of good to have on hand, during the conflict with Artos. He needn't have been around for more than 10 years to do this, he could have beaten up Mogar and some other dangerous monsters his first couple of years in the business.

What happened to the Omen-Tor, ah, that's a good question, and I hadn't quite decided. I toyed with the idea of the whole thing disappearing into the Abyss a few weeks after Arthur vanished, but that would probably require a bit too much power and be a bit too risky for OR. The best alternative I can think of is that Gargoyle and RACKET had it towed to some remote Scottish island where they can come and poke it to see where it comes from.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Siege »

Maybe the Tellurian doesn't have a permanent seat but is more of a consultant, on call when the Club needs his input. After all if he's not explicitly British then I doubt he'd be offered a chance to drop in whenever he likes -- it is after all pretty sensitive stuff these guys talk about.

I could see the Tellurian muscling in on a UN panel that intends to do the same thing on a world-wide scale, but not so much in this case; it'd be too much like Nelson Mandela muscling his way into the Pentagon War Room, in that Mr. Mandela may be an internationall recognized and adored figure, but how's he going to leverage that into access to highly sensitive information whose owners probably think it's none of his business?
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Da, I concur with what the others have said. What does the Tellurian have in stake in general UK-related matters, like Martians or rogue wizards or Quartermass quantums, that he'd be a regular at this club? I think they should do it on a case-by-case basis, like when things that are Tellurian-related, like Ominous Rex turning into a giant dragon the size of the British Isles, or something else relating to Tellurian like geostigmas or lifestreams, that they'd then consult the Tellurian.

As it is, the guys mentioned by Siege have political/military/governmental/scientific links to the UK somehow someway, and the Tellurian concept as far as I know doesn't have anything like that. Unless you somehow steep the Tellurian in British lore or something or make him explicitly Britishy...

I can see him being more regularly attached to GOLAS/UN stuff, being a global-scope hero. But the UK specifically? Not sure.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

^That stuff all makes perfect sense, and I agree with it. You could apply similar kinds of principles to the guy from the Quartermass Experiment and Lord Fahrenheit, of course, but I think that the British government's long history of cooperation with those guys, as well as the fact that they are or represent versatile supergeniuses, would make their general standing with the club more congenial. They might well think of the Tellurian as one more garish, American style superhero who happens to be good with certain magical matters.

OK, talking to Shroom today I was pointed at this thread, which features a throwaway line about a school for wizards at the North Pole. Now this is a throwaway line about a Hogwarts spoof, but I think it could be expanded on because it brings up the question, relevant to some of my characters in the pipeline, about how exactly wizards are taught magic. From what we've got so far it seems as if it is largely a very personal thing, maybe Gargoyle acts as a kind of wizard academy (something halfway between Hogwarts and Sandhurst perhaps) and maybe there are Russian and German equivalents, or were during and before the war at any rate. I also imagine Deimos having a kind of training program.
BUT, these are all quite specialist, I think the impression is that you can't just enroll to read thaumaturgy at university. This could be because A) magic is just difficult and maybe you need to have the right genes to use it, though I don't think this should be a universal rule, and B) There are public safety concerns since using magic incorrectly can mean you summon a horror from beyond time and etc.
So even if you can read thaumaturgy at university I expect that in 99% of cases it won't actually translate to you having much magical clout. You could possibly know the right symbols to make yourself safer from gribblies or get yourself a bit of extra luck, but you won't be summoning angels or taking holidays to Unknown Kadash anytime soon. You know, most muggles could maybe learn herbology like Tony Blair, if they worked at it.
But maybe there are other places like the academy mentioned in the Lumberjack article, set up by private individuals to teach the scions of magical families or just anyone prepared to learn. They'd probably have been set up by wizards and be in various hard to reach places, such as the North Pole, so that national muggle governments didn't stick their noses in. Gargoyle and similar groups could have a kind of amicable don't ask don't tell policy with such places, maybe because, I don't know, Dame Amelia spent a year learning at the North Pole place. If there's some kind of network in place it would lead to a vaguely suspicious and uncomfortable old boys (and girls) network among wizards around the world, the kind of situation where for instance a Gargoyle old hand might say, 'Oh, Ludwig Schroedinger? Well, yes, he was a Nazi and yes he's a little bit off, but who isn't? He's not a bad chap, really, let's not be too hard on him, he really has had a dreadful time...'

Plus I want to expand on this throwaway idea because an international wizard's school built into/out of a glacier at the North Pole is a brilliant image.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Siege »

Amelia Duvalier learned the 'family trade' from her grandfather, His Grace Aristide Duvalier, the 23rd Duke of Avalon, Lord Warlock of the Crown and Master of Gargoyle Manor (although he almost certainly didn't serve as Lord Warlock or Master of the Manor by the time Amelia and her brother grew up). It's a fair gamble she didn't have to attend anywhere, since her family is supposed to be one of the most prominent magical families in Britain with their roots going back to the Hundred Years War at least.

I always considered Gargoyle Manor to be much more of a Sandhurst and much less or a Hogwarts -- it's a dangerous place where dangerous people go to do dangerous things. That isn't to say you couldn't learn things there, because I imagine you could, but I don't think the place would be very big on theoretical research and instead focused more on discovering new ways of meeting interesting magical creatures and finding ways to subsequently kill them.

As an aside, the Quartermass Experiment has an Irregular Sciences department which is run by a guy with a Masters in Applied Theology, which I always intended to mean "has studied magic at the PhD level". I imagine organizations like the Experiment and places like Cambrige and Oxford universities would nicely complement the Manor in that they are much less interested in blowing things up and far more in finding ways to systematize magic and discover its fundamental principles.

I'm not opposed to there being schools of magic around the world; if there are then it's a fair bit there's one in Crowtalon City what with the proliferation of streetlevel magic thereabouts. Not sure about this North Pole place though. I rather fancy the idea of wizards being an old boy's network that transcends traditional political rivalries and people like Stalag Luft or Ludwig Schroedinger being aberrations (blame the Reich), I'm just not sure what this school would look like and why the hell it would be located on the pole of all places.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

My thought on the North Pole place would that it would be somewhere out of the way where (muggle!) governments can't interfere with the running of the place, somewhere for the fraternity of wizards to practice their craft without interruption. I like the idea of there being a place like this at least in the arctic circle somewhere because it's very remote, innaccessible and seems otherworldly, at least to me. Its inaccessibility would, however, mean that it isn't somewhere you get accepted, hop on a train and start classes, clearly the original intent would be that this is a place for a very exclusive group of people who know the way to get there to come and learn the secrets of the arcane. Being able to go there at all would in a sense be part of the entry requirements.

That's the kind of thing I would imagine, admittedly this kind of rationale is probably more suited to a university or library or otherwise place for adult wizards to come of their own accord than a school for kids.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Malchus »

I'm not sure how inaccessible the North Pole would be, at least to muggle governments. Submarines have been going under the place for decades now, and quite a number of those take it as a matter of pride to surface right under the ice over the pole and push their way through to the surface. Further, patrols are still sent there by any nation with a capable sub fleet and a sizeable presence in the northern Atlantic and Pacific. Of course, there is that whole magically-hidden thing, or somesuch, but they should expect the regular passage of muggle subs under them.

EDIT: Maybe the place could be mobile? They see a muggle sub coming up, they roll their eyes in exasperation and move the whole thing until they've gone and left.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

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Maybe it's not really about submarines, but the general isolation of the place - without any cities full of pesky muggles or airwaves full of radio and trashy TV signals and *gasp* cell-sites, and air reeking of fossil fuels or landfills - that lends them to go to places like that. They could just go to some out of place place in the rurals and get the same effect.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Malchus »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Maybe it's not really about submarines, but the general isolation of the place - without any cities full of pesky muggles or airwaves full of radio and trashy TV signals and *gasp* cell-sites, and air reeking of fossil fuels or landfills - that lends them to go to places like that. They could just go to some out of place place in the rurals and get the same effect.
Or, maybe, it's just at the Arctic Circle now. Maybe, every few years or decades or so, the place moves to some other far-off, isolated place on the planet. Knowing that it has moved could be as much part of the "requirements" in gaining to entry to the place as much as finding it.
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Siege »

I'm warming up to the idea of it being a permanent fixture somewhere on the Pole, like a weird version of Santa's house. Also, if it's on the North Pole it also affects the flight paths of nuclear bombers during the Cold War. It would actually be pretty interesting if the guys running the place said "our defensive wards will fry any bomber coming within 100 miles, so stay away". The academy could have its own exclusion zone!
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

The arctic circle would have been really inaccessible if it was set up even 100 years ago, I think that could be a decent rationale for it, these days it could move around on an iceberg or by magic like the city of the Great Sultan, or it could just stay there hidden behind wards and magical storms.

The idea of it having its own exclusion zone is kind of cool as well, though. Just something the superpowers have to work around because it's there but wants nothing to do with their muggle wars. Though I'd think anything that's part of an old wizard's network and probably takes in a lot of people from well established European magical nobility wouldn't be all that well disposed to Soviet Socialist Sorcerors. They'd probably at unofficially support the western powers, or at least the European ones, where there was a conflict of interests that involved them (e.g. they wouldn't let Soviet peasants enroll, which is probably fine by them, since socialist magic draws on the Power of the Proletariat and the Dialectic and so forth).

Of course I just imagine this place as being quite old, well established and a bit snotty about who they let in, so if you're a scion of an established family you can come, if you have someone in good standing who can vouch for you, you can come, but they don't let people in just because they pass an entrance exam. If you're a nobody who has just found this place you'll have to do something to specifically impress some of the staff before you can get a place, and they have quite a few prejudices to get past. If you want someone who rewards raw talent you're probably better off going to Jurgen Baccara (and I wonder what the school thinks of him, how much of a reputation does he have?)

Also, can anyone think of a good name for this place?
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Zor »

Howabout this, an alien intelligence of a species of self aware machines arrives on earth, hiding underwater as a mobile. This being finds humanity to be enthralling and wants to learn about Humanity. As such, it builds facimilies, cybernetic and robotic constructs programmed to fill various roles in human society. Some of them have a degree of free will, some times complete after a term, but all send all data back to their leader. Some of them are simple average people, factory workers in China, housewives, paper pushers, civil servents and so forth, others are Policemen, Criminals or even lower tier Superheroes, monsters and villians. Most of these are harmless, but some of them are not. One thing that this mind might do is have a regular unassuming woman who works in data entry and is perfectly normal unless there are regular crooks or enemy soldiers nearby fighting with the authorities, in which case she grows talons out of her fingers and develops a sudden resistance to bullets and superhuman acrobatics and proceeds to rip them to peices. After which she regains regular agility, physical strength and mindset. Its possible to detect them using human, but its dificult, few people have the resources to do it and you can't do it to everyone. Besides, most of them are harmless enough.

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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Siege »

Hay guys, did we ever establish anything definitive about anything in the South Pacific?
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Invictus »

Apart from a healthy population of Kaiju and Shroom's Surfer Elf islands? I don't think so.
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Ford Prefect
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 11:12 am

Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Ford Prefect »

I think depends on how you define 'South Pacific'. If you're talking about Australasia or Oceania, then yeah, there's some stuff here and there, but nothing terrifically major.
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Invictus
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Re: (MOAR) Mad Ideas!

Post by Invictus »

The Technosaint Nova and his AYERS RAILGUN is pretty major I guess in Australia, if he's still canon.
"This explanation posits that external observation leads to the collapse of the quantum wave function. This is another expression of reactionary idealism, and it's indeed the most brazen expression."
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REBUILD OF COMIX STAGE 1 - Rey Quirino Versus the Dark Heart of the Philippines
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