Official Movie Review Thread

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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:38 am




Siege :P
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:25 pm

:)

The short story doesn't have any splosions and running in it though, and is I think better for it. But it's a great cast so I have hopes for the film!
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:41 pm

Haven't read yet, but then by UNIVERSAL COINCIDENCE Vic also then mentioned the movie. Gasp.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:36 pm

Kay Moby you really shoulda told me you were making a CSW movie Imma get my lawyers now...

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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:44 am

Reposting from FB:

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I really enjoyed Shin Godzilla. I totally marked out for it, I thought the human bits actually really worked well considering the current and historic context, what their country has been through... and the grotesquestrosity of this version of Godzilla, was wonderful... and actually homages parts of the past lore (the Godzilla kaiju-biology reminiscent of Destroyah and 2000). The new stuff Anno added was great too. PHASED ARRAY!

The government professionalism, realpolitik ambiguities, the lack of ridiculous caricatures (except one character's Engrish), how even their shortcomings were shown to have understandable causes... I really appreciated that. Not to mention the very discomforting depictions of wrecked cityscapes - IMO not campy like other disaster/monster films, not with the ridiculous relish of those Emmerich "2012" movies, but actually kind of unsettling because of the frankness, so kudos to their combination of CGI and practical effects.

Because "of reasons" they've got this very multi-faceted and conflicted view of issues, about militarism, defense hardware, technology, ecology, calamity, etc. and these nuances are part of the Godzilla films' soul. Their meditations on these things require patience, so it's understandable how this can be off-putting... I am sure the dubbed version would totally fall short (unless they got Ghibli/Lasseter winsome dubbing).

I am sure this movie is a prequel to Nausicaa. And now I gotta actually watch Evangelion to see what happens in between the two films.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:55 pm

Currently rewatching The Martian which is a great film as everyone knows.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:12 am

Train to Busan was superb. Really well done modern zombie akshun with the... "thematic gravitas" of those old Romero films. The characterizations were great, the innovative, claustrophobic portrayal of the nightmarish scenario made for one hell of a ride (haha), I think this deserves to be in the canon - in terms of significance and quality, it's pretty much the 28 Days Later of South Korean cinema, in my opinion. Not that I'm familiar with South Korean cinema.

I had no idea what it was. It had barely any advertising when it showed here, it seemed like some cheap flick that would disappear from the fancy malls' cinemas after a week... but through sheer word of mouth it's been in theaters for three weeks now, when things like Revenant and Birdman disappear after a week, when Hateful Eight never showed, when Godzilla Resurgence - something of comparable genre - didn't even last a week. Then - all of a sudden - the lines for the movie were HUGE. So this is really something. Don't miss it!

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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:31 pm

Westworld so far (two episodes are out now) is genuinely one of the more disturbing TV shows I recall seeing. Part of it because Ed Harris is a scary motherfucker when he wants to be, but mostly because how it interweaves the super callous way the visitors of the park treat its robit denizens with glimpses that show that those same robits may be quite a bit more feeling than the visitors are lead to believe. Looking forward to more!
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Mobius 1 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:24 pm

Westworld is fantastic. It hits a lot of tropes and sci-fi subjects I really love - robots! Artificial intelligence! Creepy Anthony Hopkins! and the amount of work put into the details is really great. I love seeing Crichton's stuff being rebuilt through the lens of a partial commentary on video games (Nolan compared it to Red Dead Redemption recently) and I hope they manage to provide some answers down the line and this doesn't become another Lost.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:13 am

SAVE THE REBELLION

SAVE THE DREAM!!!!


*sirens*

ROGUE ONE



It was wonderful. And it was really loyal to A New Hope. It doesn't supplant it. It was so brilliant precisely because, while it showed the Rebel fleet in action (as the ANH opening crawl said, the REBEL FLEET WON ITS FIRST VICTORY, etc.) and it showed the Rebel spies being badass and the Imperial forces being the juggernaut it is... the plot was made in such a way that it would complement A New Hope perfectly, not overshadow it despite the intense action and the super-awesome total war setpieces. It made it so that if you watched ANH after Rogue One, ANH would be enhanced because Rogue One further showed/elaborated what the stakes were and just how desperate the Rebels in Yavin were after the events of Rogue One.
And... what the Rebels in Rogue One had to do to survive in such a galaxy... the personal costs they had to pay, all that jazz. The characterizations were great.

[POTENTIAL SPOILERS]
It's a miracle. How Rogue One raised ANH, putting it over, despite the fact that it showed what was possibly the greatest combined arms battle scene in Star Wars film history - an all-aspect operation from orbital capital ship-grade slobberknockers to aerospace tactical fighter action to close air support to infantry vs. armor ground warfare - without overshadowing A New Hope, while making A New Hope's desperate struggle all the more meaningful!
I think these achievements override any flaws Rogue One had in terms of pacing and scene-transitioning due to whatever editorial interferences or reshootings they had to do (and I believe those were done out of genuine attempts to make the movie even better...). The cast and crew met and surpassed the challenges of making an actual awesome Star Wars "prequel" that would serve the Original Trilogy and A New Hope well.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:26 pm

Agree completely. Rogue One was absolutely wonderful. I really enjoyed how the Rebellion was, for the most part, reduced to hiding in the shadows and incidental gun-and-run attacks on handfuls of stormtroopers - because the Empire was simply that much more powerful. It sold the desperation very well. So, yes, the only thing I'm really left wanting is to have seen
what happened to those two crashing Star Destroyers.
and I could've done with more Forest Whitaker, but that's honestly more of a permanent state of being.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:36 pm

*grumps about reboot universe* Don't know if/when I'll see it. Does sound better than TFA though
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:23 pm

I like The Great Wall a great deal. The story is very straightforward but well executed, the action is good fun, the setting was fresh and the movie avoids a bunch of annoying tropes so well I don't really care if it's because the politbureau demanded it or if it's just good storytelling. It's not a particularly revolutionary movie but if it's a sign of things to come out of China in the future then, well, I'm all for it.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:49 pm

Recently, I watched Birdman on Netflix.

It's as far as I can tell competently directed, shot, scripted and acted and it's got some fun things in it.

But ultimately meh. Because it's taking a massive crass swipe at superhero movies. And gosh darn it, I like superhero movies. It seems especially ironic we're both supposed to look down on superheroes and look down on the critic who wishes to denounce the main character solely because they used to be a superhero actor.

This won best picture? It probably got more attention for it's meta-casting and gimmick 'looks like all one shot' cinematography than anything else.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:07 am

You didn't feel for the meta-critique of Keating's preposterous pretentious washed out has been actor AND Norton's preposterous self-important pretentious thespian? :(
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:57 pm

ARRIVAL is incredible. Brilliant plot, with delectable craziness and weirdness and a welcomed avoidance of utterly tired pew-pew 'splosions. The emphasis on linguistics, the entire puzzling setup and the great composition of the aliens with their vessels, language, mission, etc. is all in all just so refreshing. It's to sci-fi what the director's prior film, Sicario, was for the action genre and I guess this significantly alleviates worries for Blade Runner and the eventual Dune adaptation. It's just so much waw.

I'm very fine with the plot devices used in the narrative - it's a bold choice and, really, most other options, including pew-pew 'splosion-akshun, are totally been-there/done-that anyway. Subverting, avoiding, flipping over (and flipping off!) Great Action Hero cliches from the action-moviefication of sci-fi AND tired ass American military folklore-isms in sci-fi is <3

Though I don't think "aliens appear" = "automatic riots all over the world." Neill Blomkamp's documentary didn't show THAT degree of civil unrest... but then again, I am sure people around the world were calmer because they believed SOOTH EFFRICKA could handle giant alien spaceship appearances. :D

I'm also tickled at the Chinese belligerence over the alien vessel over Asian waters ;) and I guess my only complaint is the composition of their speculative/made-up Chinese hardware. J-20 or J-31-like fighters on a non-CATOBAR, not-even-ski jump... short-deck LHD-type carrier? Either the Chinese somehow magically got VTOL out of nowhere or... yeah, blargh blargh blargh :P

...and why place Iskanders (?) or whatever SRBMs within line of sight/visual range of the target anyway? What's the minimum range for those things, how far do they have to go to accelerate to attack speed?



Plus Saw Gerrera makes for a damn good Generadmiral Commanderalissimo of the You Ess Marangerine Force Smarmy Mavy. The less Corporatenant Blandy McBlanderson the 2nd or Shootgun McStabpunch Jr., the better.

AND it was hard to tell it was Forrest Whittaker because for once he wasn't batfuck nuts.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:22 am

Power Rangers is really quite fun. I can't say the amount my nostalgia and liking for the original is colouring my judgement but I liked it. It's basically a superhero team origin movie. So there's a lot of character work. It's not ground breaking but it's there for Jason, Kimberly and Billy especially. Trini and Zack also get moments but less so.

Alpha 5 was not annoying, Quite an achievement for the character.

And it had a giant robot beating up a lump of gold. So there was some proper PR stuff in there.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Ghost in the Shell is a neat movie and I don't understand what reviewers were fussing about. I loved all the visuals, I think Johansson really sold me on the Major as human mind in a shapely but very inhuman body and the story whilst not anything we haven't seen before is functional and decently executed. It certainly left me wanting to see more of that world. Also the Section 9 agents were all total badasses - Aramaki in particular - and man, did I say I loved the visuals and the design of everything? The city, the cars, cyberspace, all the cybernetics, the whole thing looks just like how people in the early nineties thought the world would look in thirty years. I totally dug the aesthetics.

I do feel that the pacing at times felt like a bunch of stuff was left on the cutting room floor, which is too bad because I certainly wouldn't have minded it being slightly longer. And whilst my recollection of the animated film is a bit rusty, but it did seem to be that the people in the live action film pretty much went through the motions of saying there was such a thing as a unique 'ghost' humans had without much backing it up. Certainly the Hanka researchers didn't give me much reason to believe such a thing really existed, what with their wholesale copying and deleting of memories, whereas in the anime the belief in a soul/ghost seemed more genuine.

All in all though, I went in without much in the way of expectations and was very pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Steve » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:59 pm

I don't even know where to begin with Wonder Woman. They remained loyal to Diana's character, they gave us a good story, maybe no really big twists, but they made it interesting.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:10 pm

I just got back from seeing Spider-Man: Homecoming, I’m still pretty amped up from it. So it definitely did something write. I’m a sourpuss and loathe to admit it but it is all things considered it’s probably to best Spider-Man movie that’s been made yet. On average.

By which I mean it’s consistently very good throughout. But, it’s not as good as the best bits of say… ASM2 for me. And it’s never as bad as the say… the bad bits of ASM2. It’s just very good.

It fits very well into the MCU and continues smoothly from Pete’s part in Civil War. It even includes bits of the events of Civil War Pete was filming on his cell camera. And it sticks with Pete’s character from that film. Dorky well-meaning teenager who’s over his head. This works for a team movie but it’s not as good for a solo one IMO. The thing about Spider-Man solo comics that I recall is the Peter Parker is the dorky shy one and Spider-Man is a confident wise-cracking motormouth. They don’t quite capture that aspect to him in this film.

There are multiple plot threads in the film; The Vultures weapons business. Spider-man trying to foil it. Tony’s crappy mentoring and Peter Parker’s social life and they all intermingle and flow along together effectively.

Micheal Keaton’s Vulture is very good. Both in costume design and in character. The twist with him, that’s Liz’s father worked extremely well as did the drive to the dance. The final scenes of spidey saving him and Vulture keeping dumb about who Spidey is effectively echo what he says there. “I saved your life. You owe me.”

Tony is… a crappy mentor and I’m not sure how much the film knows this. He gives Peter a super-suit with lots and bells and whistles and then gets pissed off with him for using it. He chides him for not knowing about an FBI investigation, he was never told about.

I’m very glad Peter was in ‘his’ costume in the finale. And that Iron Man entirely absent from the action aside from two rescue films, help keeps it a Spider-Man solo film as it should be.

Minor Gripe: Spidey’s spidersense is once again mostly ignored. Despite it being featured in CW. In most continuity it doesn’t let him slip up like he does here with his secret identity. Twice! (On the other hand I hope any sequels keep it explicit that Aunt May knows who he is.) Another gripe: Aunt May is underused.

I think the biggest flaw I see with the film is that it’s a quasi-origin film. They keep rebooting spidey. They never let him be the mature hero that can really strut his stuff power wide.

Still a very competent, very worth expansion to the MCU. I liked it, I thought it was very good. I’d shy away from calling it Amazing.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:51 am

I think the movie realizes that Tony Stark isn't the best father figure - hell, I think Tony Stark himself knows this, because he alludes to it several times. Family, fathers and all that jazz is a major theme of the entire movie, and Tony Stark trying to rise above his obvious, glaring imperfections is one of the main threads in the MCU.

That was clearly a factor with the suit too: Tony didn't have to build all that crazy functionality into it. He could've just... not done that. But instead he elected to fit a shitload of extraneous functionality AND a kill mode to a weaponized suit handed to a fifteen year old, and then he secretly records everything that fifteen year old does with it. Despite himself, despite all the 'don't do what I would do' speeches and all that, Stark obviously cannot help himself - once he starts building shit his technowizard dark side takes over and he doesn't stop once to wonder if he should just because he can.

Even after Ultron that's a massive problem for Stark, and I really like that - I like that Tony Stark for all his genius is still fallible, still human, still trying to work with shades of grey, and that occasionally still just cannot help himself. But in the end, he could've easily just fucked off with all his insane technology and been the richest most powerful son of a bitch in the universe, and yet despite all the shit that gets heaped on him he's still out there trying to run the Avengers and doing some good in the world. Stark in my opinion is the most human character in the entire MCU (which is why I'll take his side over Cap's BS in Civil War any day of the week, but I digress).

I think Homecoming is the best Spider-Man movie so far. If only because I really dig the concept of a bunch of down-on-their-luck blue collar types hot-rodding alien technology to break into banks and such. Keaton sold the shit out of Vulture, which gives me some hope that the MCU has learned from earlier villain mistakes. I also liked how Homecoming doesn't do the Manhattan web slinging, doesn't go for the 'lol so awkward' humor of the Raimi films, how it pretty much doesn't do any of the stuff we've seen of Spider-Man films before, how it keeps the stakes relatively low, and does something new.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:49 am

why is it that Tony Stark is the thing about this review everyone jumps on?( happened at sdn as well) I guess just feel I wasn't entertained by the antics as I think the film wanted me to.

And Pete using his costume to continue heroics and then not doing Tony Stark at they wanted feel like they should have been bigger moments than they were.

As for Civil War. Yeah, I actually want to on that. I liked it and I could see how both sides got where they were. Steve's as much about 'stop trying to kill my best friend who's the only thing I have left from the 40s as he is just the principle of thing. And who can blame him for distrusting government oversight when the oversight he did volunteer for turned out the a) will to nuke nyc and then b) be Nazi.

While Tony has got a point about oversight but is trying to strong arm it over everyone and present them with a fait accompli, because everyone has to do what Tony Stark wants all the time. If they'd stopped to get the Avengers onboard before rolling out the accords they could have probably got them on board in the same Steve would have signed up in Germany. "I don't like this but I'll sign up so long as there a safeguards against it being abuse." Steve is willing to compromise. Tony much less so until he's presented with a lot of evidence he was wrong.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:13 pm

Warning! Mildly hyperbolic rant incoming ;)

I just recently rewatched Civil War, and Steve Rogers to me at no point seemed willing to compromise. He wanted to be able to do his own thing, whenever he wanted, wherever he wanted, with no oversight and no accountability to anyone or anything but his own conscience. Whilst I understand his hesitation to submit to authority and oversight given what happened to SHIELD, that's just no way to run an operation like the Avengers. It's utterly unconscionable that a group such as them go in and level buildings (or countries, in case of Sokovia) and then at the end of the day answer to no-one for it, even if they do it with the best of intentions.

Much as Secretary Ross was a giant asshole and a terrible diplomat in that movie, he was absolutely one hundred percent on the money on that one. Violating the sovereignty of entire countries just because Steve Rogers feels like it is not cool. What Rogers de facto wants is the ability to, at his convenience, completely ignore any law on the planet that he doesn't personally feel deserves respect. Meanwhile Stark, who has been down that line and has seen what comes of it, at least recognizes that international order isn't something that can just be violated without grievous repercussions. Much as his communication skills need working on, at least he's trying to work with international consensus instead of doing whatever the fuck he feels like.

He presents the Avengers with a fait accompli because it is a fait accompli. The Accords have been settled. The international community is in agreement - something it incidentally has either come to at spectacular speed or, what I find more likely, this situation has been brewing for some time and the Avengers have dealt with it by completely ignoring the justified concerns of one hundred and seventy-something (or whatever number it was) countries. Well, now those countries all agree that the way the Avengers currently operate isn't desirable. And Steve Rogers would just ignore that because he doesn't personally like it. What the balls.
If they'd stopped to get the Avengers onboard before rolling out the accords they could have probably got them on board in the same Steve would have signed up in Germany. "I don't like this but I'll sign up so long as there a safeguards against it being abuse." Steve is willing to compromise.
No he wasn't. Stark made it clear that the Accords could be amended, that there was room to accomodate Steve's concerns, but Steve threw a hissyfit anyway because the US government didn't let Wanda Maximoff go wherever she pleased. This coming from a man who not hours previously through his own actions in Budapest proved to the entire world why enhanced individuals need to be handled with extreme care.

Pretty much the entire conflict could've been avoided if for just one minute Steve Rogers had stopped being an utter sanctimonious prick and looked beyond his own wants and hangups. Tony Stark tries to accomodate him literally right up to the very end of Civil War. In fact, Civil War essentially is a movie about a string of increasingly exasperated heroes and government officials trying to clean up after Steve Rogers, until the mess he's made is so great that it becomes impossible to shelter him from the consequences of his own actions any longer. It apparently takes being reduced to an international pariah for Captain freaking America to realize that maybe he wasn't handling things particularly well - and even then his apology is half-assed!
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Booted Vulture » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:36 pm

Siege wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:13 pm
Warning! Mildly hyperbolic rant incoming ;)
Lol, I should not have pulled on that thread. I get too hacked off. I usually sounds more critical of Tony than I mean to because I feel like everyone's already on his side. I mean it when I say, I can see both sides, where both people were coming from. I don't want to get bogged down in a point by point discussion but if there's anything specific you want me to address or talk about please mention it. (if you want to continue the discussion. No pressure.)

As a matter of principle, yes of course oversight is preferable. The Avengers can't be allowed to go anywhere. Do whatever they want. Especially if we apply what we'd want to happen in the real world. Of course we'd want oversight and authority.

But the MCU is not the real world. It's a story world where things are set up that the Avengers were considered right in previous movies. I mean yes, they had no permission to be in Sokovia, but in being there. They saved the world. No permission to be Lagos but if they weren't... bioweapons get on the black market.

Would civilian oversight really told them to do any different? (and if they had told tony not to fuck bout with the staff to try and make ultron would he have listened?) On the flipside, how long would it take for a 100 odd nations to agree the Avengers should go in? What happens if everyone of them can veto it? Say Crimson Dynamo is going to blow up the world but Russia won't let the Avengers in to stop him?

I fully respect that you disagree with Steve's ideas here. But part of what I was trying to get at is that it wasn't just Steve's principles that drove the conflict. Steve didn't think 'I want to avoid oversight and I will fight the civil war to stop it'. He ignored it and that's not good. But he ignored it to save his best friend. And only link to the past. Especially important to him since he just lost the only other person from that time period still alive. He's in pain from that. Of course he's going to do everything he can to save Bucky. Especially as Sharon Carter tells him they're shooting to kill.

So he rescues Bucky and when they get captured. He cooperates. He doesn't immediately start kicking ass when War Machine isn't there to keep an eye on him. He only kicks off again when he figures out there's a bigger plan in motion and Bucky's escaped again.

And then, he gets the intel from Bucky and realises the whole world as at stake. He tries to tell Tony and gets rebuffed. (he times it shitily of course) so then it's not about the oversight/freedom principle. It's about the world not being destabilised and destroyed by the Winter soldiers. This is what I mean by 'understandable' it flows from his history and his known character. But I see why people don't like it.

I think it's a little silly to save 'Steve never shows willingness to compromise' and then talk about the scene where... Steve is willing to compromise. Just because you don't agree with where he draws the line doesn't totally nullify the event.

People cast Tony's actions in there best light but what he was doing in that scene was saying 'fall in line with me and this will all be all right. Don't and you all go to jail.' In fact it wasn't the US Gov. restricting Wanda's movement. It was Tony having a quiet word with Vision. She hadn't been charged with anything, they had no legal authority to hold her. Tony just thought it would be convenient for her to be out of the public eye and makes it happen. That's unlawful detention. (Again, not trying to rag on Tony overly here. He could theoretically have a quiet word with her to keep a low profile, instead he sics Vision on her. But given their past history this makes total sense) And it's part of the reason Tony is on the wrong side to me.

Ross is more than an asshole. He's a villain. He's a Hulk villain. In the Incredible Hulk he flat out says Banner and Hulk are the property of the US Government. That's how he sees metahumans and superheroes. They don't have human rights. He threatens Tony with jail not for breaking the law, just for failing to apprehend Steve. When Bucky is arrested Martin Freeman's Ross (Everett Ross an unrelated Black Panther character) scoffs at the idea of Bucky getting a lawyer, you know, due process.

So yeah, I'm bang on the idea of oversight and so on. But the Sokovia Accords were a terrible way of achieving it and implemented in bad faith by a villain.
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Re: Official Movie Review Thread

Post by Siege » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:45 pm

Booted Vulture wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:36 pm
Lol, I should not have pulled on that thread. I get too hacked off. I usually sounds more critical of Tony than I mean to because I feel like everyone's already on his side.
:-D Amusingly I feel the opposite way, so...
(if you want to continue the discussion. No pressure.)
... let the nitpicking commence!
But the MCU is not the real world. It's a story world where things are set up that the Avengers were considered right in previous movies. I mean yes, they had no permission to be in Sokovia, but in being there. They saved the world. No permission to be Lagos but if they weren't... bioweapons get on the black market.
I question this; I think a strong point could be made that whilst the Avengers were a net positive in both situations, the outcome of their inverventions could have been significantly improved had they cooperated with some sort of international authority. They could have had more assets at their disposal, caused less collateral damage, and generally come out better by not being stretched so thin (compare the outcome of the Civil War opener vs. the outcome of the Winter Soldier opener, where Cap had a bunch of SHIELD commandos at his back). As it was the Avengers barely came out on top in Sokovia and in Lagos things very nearly went even more pearshaped than they did - had Black Widow been a fraction of a second slower, or one step further away, she'd have missed the vial of green gooey badness and there goes the neighborhood.

Frankly both situations could've been handled a lot better than they were.
On the flipside, how long would it take for a 100 odd nations to agree the Avengers should go in? What happens if everyone of them can veto it?
Much as Captain America worries about this in the movie, there's no concrete proof the Accords would set up an unduly burdensome and slow system of oversight and assent. Since previous oversight systems (the World Security Council / SHIELD) didn't appear to suffer from a lack of initiative I feel it's unfair to assume that this new system would.

Incidentally international veto systems tend to exist for a good reason - much as it's popular to believe Security Council vetos stifles countries' ability to act on crises (which is, I grant you, regularly somewhat true), mob rule of the majority in international relations is an even worse idea by far.

In my opinion the proliferation of high technology and enhanced beings would complicate, but not invalidate, this reality. It calls for an adaptable and quick clearance system, not for no clearance system at all.
I fully respect that you disagree with Steve's ideas here. But part of what I was trying to get at is that it wasn't just Steve's principles that drove the conflict. Steve didn't think 'I want to avoid oversight and I will fight the civil war to stop it'. He ignored it and that's not good. But he ignored it to save his best friend. And only link to the past. Especially important to him since he just lost the only other person from that time period still alive. He's in pain from that. Of course he's going to do everything he can to save Bucky. Especially as Sharon Carter tells him they're shooting to kill.
I acknowledge his motivations but still conclude he did the wrong thing. Even if we assume the team they sent after Bucky was going to just execute him on the spot regardless of circumstances, Rogers didn't just save his friend (who, by the way, is a legendary international assassin with a crazy bodycount and a head full of HYDRA secrets), he saved his friend and ran. Thereby making his own case vastly more difficult by proving exactly the point of the people who drew up the Accords - that a system of oversight and control is sorely needed.

If Steve Rogers really is the master tactician people keep telling me he is, he should've at least acknowledged he'd actively made things more difficult after they'd brought him in. That he'd just proved that any Avenger not signed up with the Accords is a massive liability.

But he doesn't do any of that: he throws a fit (and I do really stand by that characterization) after Stark lets slip that Wanda is confined to the Avengers compound because of the situation he is now himself knee deep in.

I say again: what the fuck did Steve Rogers expect to happen? Did he even think about the situation at all? Did he stop for even one second to consider the consequences of his actions?
And then, he gets the intel from Bucky and realises the whole world as at stake. He tries to tell Tony and gets rebuffed. (he times it shitily of course) so then it's not about the oversight/freedom principle. It's about the world not being destabilised and destroyed by the Winter soldiers. This is what I mean by 'understandable' it flows from his history and his known character. But I see why people don't like it.
What I see here is Steve Rogers trying to do the thing he just did that didn't work out, again. Except this time he also ropes in his friends and makes international criminals out of them. Sound strategy there, Captain. By now he really should have realized he's going about this the wrong way. It's only when he's made a wanted man out of himself and gets cornered by the remaining Avengers that he tries talking. And lo, Tony Stark actually engages with him: come in, we'll figure this out and respond appropriately. But no, Captain America makes a fight out of it, again. It's his way or the highway, which doesn't work out for him, again, and he's ultimately forced to flee. And even though Rhodes was badly injured and he has plenty reason to be pissed way the fuck off by Rogers' frankly erratic behaviour, Tony Stark tries to salvage the situation by reasoning with him, again.

It's only when the final insult comes out - that Steve Rogers knew that Bucky Barnes killed Stark's parents and kept his mouth shut about it, that Tony Stark finally loses his shit and lays into him.
I think it's a little silly to save 'Steve never shows willingness to compromise' and then talk about the scene where... Steve is willing to compromise. Just because you don't agree with where he draws the line doesn't totally nullify the event.

People cast Tony's actions in there best light but what he was doing in that scene was saying 'fall in line with me and this will all be all right. Don't and you all go to jail.'
They would go to jail because they broke international law. Going to jail is what happens to international criminals that get caught. It's not a threat, it's Tony trying to pound in the new reality of his situation. Something that Steve maybe should've done with his friends, because clearly Hawkeye doesn't understand it even after he finds his ass in prison.

The fact is that despite the stunt they pulled in Budapest Stark still offers a get out of jail free card to both Rogers and Barnes. Imagine the favours you'd have to pull to get James Barnes, the Winter fucking Soldier, notorious international assassin, HYDRA agent, and terrorist accused of blowing up a UN summit and going on a rampage through Budapest, assigned to an American psych ward instead of a Wakandan prison. Go on, picture it. Oh and also Steve Rogers would face zero consequences for his involvement with said Winter fucking Soldier. That's a sweet deal man.

And Rogers throws it in Stark's face.

Steve Rogers got himself into this situation through his own actions, and he's frankly straight up refusing to acknowledge that he might've done something problematic.
In fact it wasn't the US Gov. restricting Wanda's movement. It was Tony having a quiet word with Vision. She hadn't been charged with anything, they had no legal authority to hold her.


This is empathically wrong. As the movie goes some ways to point out, Wanda Maximoff is not a US citizen and does not have a visum. She has no legal grounds to be in the United States at all. Presumably she was tolerated by the government because Stark was pulling favours (AGAIN), but she hasn't signed the Accords and she's a walking talking WMD that just the other day blew up half a building full of people. Just confining her to Avengers campus until the frankly chaotic and rapidly evolving situation in Europe is sorted out is a perfectly reasonable response.

Ross is more than an asshole. He's a villain. He's a Hulk villain. In the Incredible Hulk he flat out says Banner and Hulk are the property of the US Government. That's how he sees metahumans and superheroes. They don't have human rights. He threatens Tony with jail not for breaking the law, just for failing to apprehend Steve.


And Stark obviously realizes how much of an empty bullshit threat that is considering how he treats Ross afterwards. Ross can say whatever he likes, he's clearly a raging asshole and occasionally a villain (much like - shock, horror - the Winter Soldier), that doesn't stop him from making a salient point every once in a blue moon. There's also no real indication as far as I can see that it would be Ross calling the shots on the Avengers with the Accords in play - he's the US SecState, I find it hard to come up with a reason why that job would fall to him.

When Bucky is arrested Martin Freeman's Ross (Everett Ross an unrelated Black Panther character) scoffs at the idea of Bucky getting a lawyer, you know, due process.
What actually happens in that scene is that taskforce commander Everett Ross rolls his eyes at the people who made his life more difficult yet have the gall to recriminate him to his face for doing the job they tried to stop him from doing. He even says that what will happen to Bucky is a psychological evaluation followed by extradition.

Then Stark pulls strings to get Barnes sent back to the US instead of Wakanda, but Steve goes all out with his bullshit and in the end Barnes ends up a popsicle in Wakanda anyway, proving once more that pretty much everything Steve Rogers did in Civil War was futile and self-defeating ;-) .
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