Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

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Somes J
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Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Somes J »

A question I'm curious on seeing general reactions to. Assuming you lived in a society where transhumanism was possible, would you choose it, and if so to what degree.

Assume a realistic/hard SF-ish scenario, so you can't enhance yourself in ways that break the basic laws of physics, but within that you have plenty of room (at a high end, for instance, you could turn yourself into something like this). Also, assume an AI-enabled effective postscarcity society; cost of your augmentations will not be a problem, and neither will negative economic consequences of not being augmented.

For purposes of better guaging what people would and would not choose, I've divided your options into 4 general categories:

(1) Uploading: complete abandonment of your fleshy form. Assume a scenario where brain/body simulation is good enough that your mental processes and sensory experience need not be changed unless you wish it, and you can keep an apparently human-like form if you want (remote controlled meat puppet, very realistic human-like robot etc.). Also assume a scenario where computers are available that are substantially better than the human brain pound for pound.

(2) Enhancement: you keep an organic body of some sort but intend to enhance it substantially with either biotechnology, cybernetics, or some combination of both. For purposes of this scenario, you can enhance yourself substantially while keeping an externally human appearance (though obviously there are limits).

(3) Peak humanity/immortality: you don't intend to substantially alter yourself from humanity, but within that you may improve yourself substantially. You may increase your lifespan, increase your capabilities to peak human level, make yourself physically attractive etc.

(4) None: you wouldn't enhance or change your body in any way.

Particular commentaries on how people would prefer to enhance themselves are welcome. However, I ask that we try not to make this a debate about transhumanism's general merits or plausibility, but simply stick to what you as individuals would prefer for yourselves, thank you.


Also, a secondary question for those who would not choose to enhance themselves, suppose instead you were in a transhumanist society that did not have AIs doing everything; one where effective scarcity economics still applied and you would not be eligible for many jobs because they would require transhuman workers (or would be easier for transhuman workers, so transhuman applicants would be preferred). Let's call this Scenario 2, where the first is Scenario 1. Would you change your vote?

PS, is there a poll option on this board? When I posted this to SB and SDN I made it a poll, but I couldn't find a poll option here.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Acatalepsy »

2, 3 , and then 1.

The issue for me is not which one do I do, but rather which to I do first. The goal is ultimately to maintain my continuity of self as much as possible. A perfect simulation of me is like going to bed and then waking up, but an imperfect simulation, by any margin of error is effectively death, or at least part of a death. I'd like to be able to play around with the technology as much as possible before deciding to actually use it.

I might make a backup first though, assuming the upload is nondestructive. Just in case. Because dying while determining the best way to implement immortality would sort of suck, and a %2 death beats 100% death any day.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Kingmaker »

Gogo gadget #2, although I think to a certain degree there is no necessary dichotomy between #1 and #2. An upload could jump between the infosphere and a jarhead cyborg body without necessarily encountering much difficulty. That said, disembodiment doesn't really appeal to me, even if it has generally superior intellectual capabilities. Also, arm cannons.

An aside on post-scarcity economics: I don't think we're ever going to reach a level of post-scarcity. I'm confident that we are going to get to a point that basic essentials, and even what we now consider extreme luxuries, will be cheap as free, but what is considered luxury will advance. Sure, you might own your own O'Neill Cylinder, but how about your own personal stargate, made from expensium? There is probably always going to be some sort of resource bottle-neck. The future may look post-scarcity to us, but the same could be said of how the present would look to a 10th century peasant. Expectations will rise to meet supply.

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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Siege »

I'm going straight for number one. It's got all the upsides and none of the downsides of the other options: I can pick human or humanlike avatars for the more fleshy experiences and meanwhile I or at least part of me will be safely tucked away somewhere in a digital safe-haven basically free from potential harm.

Of course this does assume that these mind-uploads aren't confined to a box that's easily cut off from the infoweb or whatever the futuristic equivalent of the Internet is called -- because that would suck pretty badly, even if you could internalize a whole world I'd prefer not to have my contact with the outside world cut off just because someone broke my antenna. So it's a conditional choice, but then again so would the others.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I'll buy the awesomest big-named brand consumer organs available! iBrains for my brains, and Kodiak optical implants so I can take digital pictures with my (cunts for) eeeeyes! I'll totally get new kidneys with SUPERIOR organic waste filtration nephrons and if I've got enough money, I can get myself a pre-owned/second hand liver so I won't be such a shit drinker anymore! Like, I can get Nike or Addidas-branded quality thigh muscles so I can have ENERGY LEGS and run totally fast, and I've got to make sure these are REAL brands and not generic or fake brands since they have a tendency of wearing down too fast! I'm not sure if I should get a gas-guzzling Ford or GMC V8 cylinder cardiovascular system, since they're totally awesomely horsepowerful, or if I should go with a Honda or Toyota hybrid cardiovascular system for more fuel economy. Should I buy American organs, or Japanese organs? I also do not know if I should go with diesel or unleaded red blood cells to fuel my organs! Help me out, guys! I'll totally upload my brainware with the newest MicroShroom OS 777 version and get a new antivirus so cyberpunk assholes and KHAAAAAN can't put brain worms in my head. A new multimedia system would be totally cool too, and I can totally download new 4D Smellovision with my brain but I'd need a bigger NINE HUNDRED GIGABYTE hard drive in my medulla oblongata. If I've got enough cash, I can totally get my face rebuffed and repainted with low radar cross section (RCS) paintjobs with radar absorbent materials and stuff! I will get my spinal cord upgraded with a General Electric fiber optic system and stuff! And, oooh-oooh, a GE airconditioning system for my lungs too since I hate the heat and humidity! Water-cooled systems, overclocked brains, maybe some Phizer or Johnson & Johnson endocrine system with branded pharmaceutical hormone glands (and not generic shit mandated by socialist government FDA progroms)! I'd love to get a new 56k brainmodem too so I can dialup to the brainternets to downloadd pornography and pirated movies with my brain with brain-to-brain software!!!

The only downside I can imagine is that the epidermis of my skin will be marked with all sorts of shitty brands. Can you imagine having a glowing neon Honda symbol on your forehead? Or everytime you wake up and your brainware boots up (or when you sleep and shut down), the MicroShroom theme plays out? That sucks. Fuck posthumanity!


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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Heretic »

I would choose 4. I'm too much of a fleshy puritan to go for alteration. I would stretch it just a bit maybe for number 2 (enchantments) so that my vision can be cured, but nothing else, and if there was an option to have a separate device that would enhance it, I would take that instead.

Now, if it was a scarcity economics issue, I would see if there are alternatives to transhumanization, and if not, just alter myself to fit only that job requirement. And once my time at the jobis finished, take those elements out.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

So if you want to work in a postmilitary, you can get postcybernetic implants so you can have posteyes and postarms and postorgans while your original meaty bits are put in a refrigerator. After you serve your term, you return your postcybernetic implants and your original meat organs are placed back into your body.

The borrowed cybernetic implants are then rented out to another aspiring recruit for the postmilitary! :D
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Heretic »

Yes, that's what I would want. I personally am I little freaked out going inside an AI, and I got some objections to altering my born identity (unless it's for a medical reason). I'm fine with enhancements in some areas in terms of medical use or to help a disabled person, but it would be a nightmare if someone chucked an EMP into a cybernetic utopia.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Unless their cybernetics would be sufficiently advanced that EMP becomes moot. Your post-skull would be made out of post-metal that's resistant to radiation! So would your post-skin! Of course, you'd have to make sure your post-skull and post-skin was made out of the best brands or else your cheapo generic unbranded post-skull or post-skin or post-carapace might spring a leak and the nasty EMP radiation melts your brain! :lol:

Military postmen would have redundant brain-systems located in their post-cavities! Maximum shielding, redundancy and secondary systems!
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Kingmaker »

Heretic wrote:it would be a nightmare if someone chucked an EMP a bomb into a cybernetic utopia city.
Fixed. To quote/paraphrase... someone... on dumpshock, in reference to Shadowrun, "Any situation in which your cybereyes can be disabled, you are in a situation where your meat eyes can be gouged out with red-hot pokers". Yeah, there will still be dangers, but overall you will still be far less vulnerable as a cyborg than as a meatbag. Hehe, meatbag. Meatbag is a funny word. Meatbag!
The only downside I can imagine is that the epidermis of my skin will be marked with all sorts of shitty brands. Can you imagine having a glowing neon Honda symbol on your forehead? Or everytime you wake up and your brainware boots up (or when you sleep and shut down), the MicroShroom theme plays out? That sucks. Fuck posthumanity!
Just hack the software and replace the boot up theme with some metal. Have a brutal start to every day.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Magister Militum »

Option 2 then 1. Uploading has its charms, but I'd rather be an immortal posthuman that could put superman to shame. If things ever get too boring, then there's always option 1 to pass the time.
An aside on post-scarcity economics: I don't think we're ever going to reach a level of post-scarcity. I'm confident that we are going to get to a point that basic essentials, and even what we now consider extreme luxuries, will be cheap as free, but what is considered luxury will advance. Sure, you might own your own O'Neill Cylinder, but how about your own personal stargate, made from expensium? There is probably always going to be some sort of resource bottle-neck
One of the tenants of economics (whether is macro or micro eludes me at the moment) is that there will always be something that not everyone can have, and, as such, there will never truly be a post-scarcity economy. Sure, all our basic needs will be covered and what might seem to be highly extravengent and expensive to us would be trivial (such as a multi-story luxery penthouse with all the trimmings), but I kinda doubt I can get my own custom made planet for free.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

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Magister Militum wrote:Sure, all our basic needs will be covered and what might seem to be highly extravengent and expensive to us would be trivial (such as a multi-story luxery penthouse with all the trimmings), but I kinda doubt I can get my own custom made planet for free.
Quite. And even if we could, that would only move the problem a little back scale-wise. Can I have my own private solar system? Star cluster? Galaxy? Universe?

I'm going for uploading primarily because I can do it and simultaneously enjoy all the fleshy pleasures by downlinking myself (for a given value of 'myself') to a local avatar. Hell, a software mind might be able to connect to a bunch of avatars simultaneously. If it's purely fleshy pleasure you're talking about, imagine the possibilities there. I'll be able to think at the speed of light, use databases full of knowledge as naturally as if they're my own memories, visit any place with datasphere interactivity and visit any place that doesn't with an avatar. I'll have perfect recall, I can be in multiple places at once, I won't ever die from something stupid like a car accident; I'll be fully self-improving! If there's a part of my personality I don't like, I can correct my own source-code directly, and if I don't like the changes, I can Ctrl+Z the change. Just like that! I can do anything, and if there are things I can't do because physics won't permit them I can create a perfect simulation and do them anyway. Holy shit, it'll be brilliant!

Sure you might argue that upload-me isn't me-me, but I find that notion unconvincing. I'm changing all the time anyway -- the guy I was a few years ago is effectively nothing more than a set of fading memories. I can do all the other options and more, and the only thing you can argue against it is that I'll no longer be human. Well, hell, humanity is overrated anyway! Bring on the bytes, people!
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Somes J »

Magister Militum wrote:One of the tenants of economics (whether is macro or micro eludes me at the moment) is that there will always be something that not everyone can have, and, as such, there will never truly be a post-scarcity economy. Sure, all our basic needs will be covered and what might seem to be highly extravengent and expensive to us would be trivial (such as a multi-story luxery penthouse with all the trimmings), but I kinda doubt I can get my own custom made planet for free.
The universe is big enough that with our present population everybody could own multiple galaxies if they wanted. Of course, with realistic tech it'd take millions or billions of years for you to get there. But I realize that's not your point.

Yes, with sufficient ingenuity I'm sure people could think of things that would be scarce enough to be valuable even in a society with Von Neumanns, interstellar travel, and access to the resources of the entire universe. I kind of doubt inequality would be anywhere near as significant a force in society when these things would make little or no practical difference to your lifestyle though. Especially when any desire that was impractical in real life could be fulfilled in virtual reality.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

I'd go for 2 then 1, so as to allow myself time to get used to the idea of being a postmodern posthuman postcybernetic postbeing or whatever us postthings are calling our postselves these (post)days. I'm honestly still a little unsure about the philosophical ramifications of transferring my consciousness to a cybernetic format but I think if I transfer my consciousness to a computer based storage format bit by bit I won't notice.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Destructionator »

Heretic wrote:I would choose 4. I'm too much of a fleshy puritan to go for alteration.
Me too. Even in scenario 2, I can't be arsed to do things like shave to get a better job, so definitely not going to get fancier alterations.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Mobius 1 »

Two or three for me. The difference between the two isn't that clear to me, but the chance to get my hands on cool cybernetics (what I would give for a HUD-like computer on my retinas). Just imagine an iPhone-esque system of "apps" icons across the bottom of your vision, or a CNN-esque newsfeed. It's not so much the phyiscal implants that interest me.

But now that I think of it: I want jet boots. Thrusters in my palms and heels. That's be beyond fun.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Ford Prefect »

Destructionator wrote:I can't be arsed to do things like shave to get a better job, so definitely not going to get fancier alterations.
Except you could alter yourself to change your beard on demand! Don't need a beard? Just think about it. Need a beard? Imagine any style and hey presto, a beard!

In any case I would take number 1. As Siege says, it's more or less the same thing as any other choice, just with hugely added benefits. In any case, i am totally getting an avatar made out of floating glass beads which can work together to create other forms. That's boss.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

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Ford Prefect wrote:Except you could alter yourself to change your beard on demand!
Yes, but I could pretty well do that now. I just don't care enough about it; a job isn't all that motivating to me.

Though, that's the thing with most the enhancements - they don't add much that you couldn't already do. Want a pile of apps with you all the time? Carry a smartphone. Need super strength? A toolbelt provides it, or if that isn't enough, just rent a giant machine. It isn't something you'll need everyday anyway.

There are some advantages to having some of these things built in, but I don't find them all that compelling.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Mobius 1 »

On the other hand, having a private screen on your retinas is worth the price of admission in and of itself. As an iPhone user (where this post is coming from) I can tell you I'd love a device with battery life extended past five hours. The toolkit option is equally disingenuous, as a car jack is nowhere comparable to picking the car up.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

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Thing is, I might not need to be able to run at 50 km/h, or jump 25 meters at once, or to see in the UV or IR spectra, or lift 250 kg with one hand on a daily basis, but it would be utterly exhilarating to be able to do so, not to mention damned handy in a pinch.

Sure you could use tools to achieve the same results, but that's kind of like saying you don't need a car because a horse-and-cart will get you there as well. It might be true, but that don't mean it's equally convenient or quick as zooming there at 120 km/h in an air-conditioned vehicle. Some options are just plain better than others.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

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Mobius 1 wrote:I can tell you I'd love a device with battery life extended past five hours.
You could get better batteries in an external device too. Actually, I wonder how you would recharge cyborg batteries. A convenient way seems to be a wireless recharger, like is coming on the market for phones now. When you are home, your internal batteries charge without any effort.

Of course, if you were at someone else's house, you'd crank up the electric bill! :lol:


I guess the implant would have the advantage of potentially having a bigger battery to draw off of, since the weight is easier to handle for a cyborg's frame.
Siege wrote:Some options are just plain better than others.
But most of this is still very subjective, and better is based on need too. Being able to go 120 kph is pretty useless if all you need to do is go 500 meters, for example.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Mobius 1 »

The battery issue is actually interesting in and of itself? What if the wares could be powered by what you ate, translating the need for power into an incredibly high metabolism? You'd double, tripple your caloric intake to support your activities, essentially eating like Michael Phelps. And if you like food, this is not a bad thing.
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Siege »

Destructionator wrote:But most of this is still very subjective, and better is based on need too.
Needs always develop hand in hand with capabilities. Back when there were no mobile phones, people didn't need them as much as we do now, because they had organized their lives along different lines. Then the mobile phone was developed, and now all you hear is people calling to tell other folks about where they are or where they ought to meet.

The same is true for automobiles, the Internet, the television, and pretty much anything you can imagine right back to the tamed horse and agriculture. Life went on before those inventions too, but that never stopped people from finding a good use for new gadgets and technologies after they became available.

Now granted, I currently don't really see why people should be able to run at 50 km/h... But then again I'm fairly sure people in the 19th century didn't see the pressing need for a mobile phone either. Once that capability is developed, I'm betting people will find a reason why they need it: they'll no longer need a bike, or they can leave for the train a little earlier, whatever. Sure their lives might not technically require the capability, but if it's there it'll be used, and it'll be damned handy to have.

So basically I find this talk of "need" rather disingenuous. Because when you get right down to it, what do you really need, anyway? You don't strictly need a mobile phone, or a car, or clothes or a house for that matter. That doesn't diminish the fact that they all come in damned handy though. So why should we base anything on such an arbitrary thing as "need" in the first place?
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Destructionator »

Mobius 1 wrote:The battery issue is actually interesting in and of itself?
It is something that has to be solved somehow, and since you mentioned longer battery life as a benefit of cyberware, it is interesting to discuss the possibilities. The power and heat management for these devices would be tricky to solve within the confines of a human body. I'm thinking that even simple cyberware will require fairly extensive body modification, especially if you want to power it through food (it then needs to be wired into the bloodstream, and somehow translate that chemical energy to electrical energy, generating even more waste heat) - making it even less attractive to me than it already was.

Another problem with an implant is replacing it will be a bigger hassle. If your current iPhone craps out, you just call Apple and drop the brick in the mail. If your internal iPhone craps out, it is off to micro-surgery. Fun.

At least the consciousness upload can just trade out its android avatar in that case, bringing it back to the ease of an external tool.
What if the wares could be powered by what you ate, translating the need for power into an incredibly high metabolism?
So instead of plugging in your iPhone every 5 hours, you now have to eat a meal every two hours. It doesn't really solve the problem, just changes where it is. This trade off might be good for you, but that goes back to personal preference.

I have a hard enough time feeding my body as it is. I'd wither and die if I had to support a power output increase.
Siege wrote:Because when you get right down to it, what do you really need, anyway?
Not much. Whcih is why I'm perfectly fine with what I have and would turn the transhumanist options down. There's nothing it can offer me that I both care about and can't already have with tools.
His Certifiable Geniusness, Adam D. Ruppe (My 'verse)
Marle: Lucca! You're amazing!
Lucca: Ain't it the truth! ... Oh, um...I mean...
Marle: Enough with the false modesty! You have a real gift! I would trade my royal ancestry for your genius in a heartbeat!

"I still really hate those pompous assholes who quote themselves in their sigs." -- Me
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Acatalepsy
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Re: Transhumanism: how would you enhance yourself?

Post by Acatalepsy »

Well, one assumes that all of the necessary advances have been made in power generation, etc. Still, the point about maintenance is a non-trivial problem. I'd actually like something more akin to GitS full prosthetic body to implanted cyberware; it's easier to just switch out of a body that develops problems without actually needed to switch computing substrate (and thus risk death), which one would need to do with uploading.
Anything that can be done to a rat can be done to a human being. And we can do most anything to rats. This is a hard thing to think about, but it's the truth. It won't go away because we cover our eyes.

- Bruce Sterling
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