News Thread

For the talkin' of jibba jabba.
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Re: News Thread

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Join the club. I want to see if I can become an nice and honest elitist. Maybe if I somehow manage, I might get to the Ripley's believe it or not! :lol:

I also wanted to be a politician, so I could get money by just lying, but my friends said I would be a bad liar, which means I would be a bad politician :P
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Re: News Thread

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Is it too late to add that "Theozoology or the Science of the Sodomite-Apelings and the Divine Electron" is pretty much the best book name ever?
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Re: News Thread

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Wait, Theozoology?

:lol:
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Re: News Thread

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You have to credit Per for doing his research... :mrgreen:

It does make for an awesome insult. "You Sodomite Apeling!!!"

Mang. Theozoology.
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Re: News Thread

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Goddamn Dictator Heretic

Goddamn You All!
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Re: News Thread

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How hilarious! I should use that pic for the OZ World RPG.
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Re: News Thread

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I showed this to Malchus
DAEJEON, South Korea (AP) — Grave by mass grave, South Korea is unearthing the skeletons and buried truths of a cold-blooded slaughter from early in the Korean War, when this nation's U.S.-backed regime killed untold thousands of leftists and hapless peasants in a summer of terror in 1950.

With U.S. military officers sometimes present, and as North Korean invaders pushed down the peninsula, the southern army and police emptied South Korean prisons, lined up detainees and shot them in the head, dumping the bodies into hastily dug trenches. Others were thrown into abandoned mines or into the sea. Women and children were among those killed. Many victims never faced charges or trial.

The mass executions — intended to keep possible southern leftists from reinforcing the northerners — were carried out over mere weeks and were largely hidden from history for a half-century. They were "the most tragic and brutal chapter of the Korean War," said historian Kim Dong-choon, a member of a 2-year-old government commission investigating the killings.

Hundreds of sets of remains have been uncovered so far, but researchers say they are only a tiny fraction of the deaths. The commission estimates at least 100,000 people were executed, in a South Korean population of 20 million.

That estimate is based on projections from local surveys and is "very conservative," said Kim. The true toll may be twice that or more, he told The Associated Press.

In addition, thousands of South Koreans who allegedly collaborated with the communist occupation were slain by southern forces later in 1950, and the invaders staged their own executions of rightists.

Through the postwar decades of South Korean right-wing dictatorships, victims' fearful families kept silent about that blood-soaked summer. American military reports of the South Korean slaughter were stamped "secret" and filed away in Washington. Communist accounts were dismissed as lies.

Only since the 1990s, and South Korea's democratization, has the truth begun to seep out.

In 2002, a typhoon's fury uncovered one mass grave. Another was found by a television news team that broke into a sealed mine. Further corroboration comes from a trickle of declassified U.S. military documents, including U.S. Army photographs of a mass killing outside this central South Korean city.

Now Kim's Truth and Reconciliation Commission has added government authority to the work of scattered researchers, family members and journalists trying to peel away the long-running cover-up. The commissioners have the help of a handful of remorseful old men.

"Even now, I feel guilty that I pulled the trigger," said Lee Joon-young, 83, one of the executioners in a secluded valley near Daejeon in early July 1950.

The retired prison guard told the AP he knew that many of those shot and buried en masse were ordinary convicts or illiterate peasants wrongly ensnared in roundups of supposed communist sympathizers. They didn't deserve to die, he said. They "knew nothing about communism."

The 17 investigators of the commission's subcommittee on "mass civilian sacrifice," led by Kim, have been dealing with petitions from more than 7,000 South Koreans, involving some 1,200 alleged incidents — not just mass planned executions, but also 215 cases in which the U.S. military is accused of the indiscriminate killing of South Korean civilians in 1950-51, usually in air attacks.

The commission last year excavated sites at four of an estimated 150 mass graves around the country, recovering remains of more than 400 people. Working deliberately, matching documents to eyewitness and survivor testimony, it has officially confirmed two large-scale executions — at a warehouse in the central South Korean county of Cheongwon, and at Ulsan on the southeast coast.

In January, then-President Roh Moo-hyun, under whose liberal leadership the commission was established, formally apologized for the more than 870 deaths confirmed at Ulsan, calling them "illegal acts the then-state authority committed."

The commission, with no power to compel testimony or prosecute, faces daunting tasks both in verifying events and identifying victims, and in tracing a chain of responsibility. Under Roh's conservative successor, Lee Myung-bak, whose party is seen as democratic heir to the old autocratic right wing, the commission may find less budgetary and political support.

The roots of the summer 1950 bloodbath lie in the U.S.-Soviet division of Japan's former Korea colony in 1945, which precipitated north-south turmoil and eventual war.

In the late 1940s, President Syngman Rhee's U.S.-installed rightist regime crushed leftist political activity in South Korea, including a guerrilla uprising inspired by the communists ruling the north. By 1950, southern jails were packed with up to 30,000 political prisoners.

The southern government, meanwhile, also created the National Guidance League, a "re-education" organization for recanting leftists and others suspected of communist leanings. Historians say officials met membership quotas by pressuring peasants into signing up with promises of rice rations or other benefits. By 1950, more than 300,000 people were on the league's rolls, organizers said.

North Korean invaders seized Seoul, the southern capital, in late June 1950 and freed thousands of prisoners, who rallied to the northern cause. Southern authorities, in full retreat with their U.S. military advisers, ordered National Guidance League members in areas they controlled to report to the police, who detained them. Soon after, commission researchers say, the organized mass executions of people regarded as potential collaborators began — "bad security risks," as a police official described the detainees at the time.

The declassified record of U.S. documents shows an ambivalent American attitude toward the killings. American diplomats that summer urged restraint on southern officials — to no obvious effect — but a State Department cable that fall said overall commander Gen. Douglas MacArthur viewed the executions as a Korean "internal matter," even though he controlled South Korea's military.

Ninety miles south of Seoul, here in the narrow, peaceful valley of Sannae, truckloads of prisoners were brought in from Daejeon Prison and elsewhere day after day in July 1950, as the North Koreans bore down on the city.

The American photos, taken by an Army major and kept classified for a half-century, show the macabre sequence of events.

White-clad detainees — bent, submissive, with hands bound — were thrown down prone, jammed side by side, on the edge of a long trench. South Korean military and national policemen then stepped up behind, pointed their rifles at the backs of their heads and fired. The bodies were tipped into the trench.

Trembling policemen — "they hadn't shot anyone before" — were sometimes off-target, leaving men wounded but alive, Lee said. He and others were ordered to check for wounded and finish them off.

Evidence indicates South Korean executioners killed between 3,000 and 7,000 here, said commissioner Kim. A half-dozen trenches, each up to 150 yards long and full of bodies, extended over an area almost a mile long, said Kim Chong-hyun, 70, chairman of a group of bereaved families campaigning for disclosure and compensation for the Daejeon killings. His father, accused but never convicted of militant leftist activity, was one victim.

Another was Yeo Tae-ku's father, whose wife and mother searched for him afterward.

"Bodies were just piled upon each other," said Yeo, 59, remembering his mother's description. "Arms would come off when they turned them over." The desperate women never found him, and the mass graves were quickly covered over, as were others in isolated spots up and down this mountainous peninsula, to be officially "forgotten."

When British communist journalist Alan Winnington entered Daejeon that summer with North Korean troops and visited the site, writing of "waxy dead hands and feet (that) stick through the soil," his reports in the Daily Worker were denounced as "fabrication" by the U.S. Embassy in London. American military accounts focused instead on North Korean reprisal killings that followed in Daejeon.

But CIA and U.S. military intelligence documents circulating even before the Winnington report, classified "secret" and since declassified, told of the executions by the South Koreans. Lt. Col. Bob Edwards, U.S. Embassy military attache in South Korea, wrote in conveying the Daejeon photos to Army intelligence in Washington that he believed nationwide "thousands of political prisoners were executed within (a) few weeks" by the South Koreans.

Another glimpse of the carnage appeared in an unofficial U.S. source, an obscure memoir self-published in 1981 by the late Donald Nichols, a U.S. Air Force intelligence officer, who told of witnessing "the unforgettable massacre of approximately 1,800 at Suwon," 20 miles south of Seoul.

Such reports lend credibility to a captured North Korean document from Aug. 2, 1950, eventually declassified by Washington, which spoke of mass executions in 12 South Korean cities, including 1,000 killed in Suwon and 4,000 in Daejeon.

That early, incomplete North Korean report couldn't include those executed in territory still held by the southerners. Up to 10,000 were killed in the city of Busan alone, a South Korean lawmaker, Park Chan-hyun, estimated in 1960.

His investigation came during a 12-month democratic interlude between the overthrow of Rhee and a government takeover by Maj. Gen. Park Chung-hee's authoritarian military, which quickly arrested many then probing for the hidden story of 1950.

Kim said his projection of at least 100,000 dead is based in part on extrapolating from a survey by non-governmental organizations in one province, Busan's South Gyeongsang, which estimated 25,000 killed there. And initial evidence suggests most of the National Guidance League's 300,000 members were killed, he said.

Commission investigators agree with the late Lt. Col. Edwards' note to Washington in 1950, that "orders for execution undoubtedly came from the top," that is, President Rhee, who died in 1965.

But any documentary proof of that may have been destroyed, just as the facts of the mass killings themselves were buried. In 1953, after the war ended in stalemate, after the deaths of at least 2 million people, half or more of them civilians, a U.S. Army war crimes report attributed all summary executions here in Daejeon to the "murderous barbarism" of North Koreans.

Such myths survived a half-century, in part because those who knew the truth were cowed into silence.

"My mother destroyed all pictures of my father, for fear the family would get an image as leftists," said Koh Chung-ryol, 57, who is convinced her 29-year-old father was innocent of wrongdoing when picked up in a broad police sweep here, to die in Sannae valley.

"My mother tried hard to get rid of anything about her husband," she said. "She suffered unspeakable pain."

Even educated South Koreans remained ignorant of their country's past. As a young researcher in the late 1980s, Yonsei University's Park Myung-lim, today a leading Korean War historian, was deeply shaken as he sought out confidential accounts of those days from ordinary Koreans.

"I cried," he said. "I felt, 'Oh, my goodness. Oh, Jesus. This was my country? It was true?'"

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission can recommend but not award compensation for lost and ruined lives, nor can it bring surviving perpetrators to justice. "Our investigative power is so meager," commission President Ahn Byung-ook told the AP.

His immediate concern is resources. "The current government isn't friendly toward us, and so we're concerned that the budget may be cut next year," he said.

South Korean conservatives complain the "truth" campaign will only reopen old wounds from a time when, even at the village level, leftists and rightists carried out bloody reprisals against each other.

The life of the commission — with a staff of 240 and annual budget of $19 million — is guaranteed by law until at least 2010, when it will issue a final, comprehensive report.

Later this spring and summer its teams will resume digging at mass grave sites. Thus far, it has verified 16 incidents of 1950-51 — not just large-scale detainee killings, but also such events as a South Korean battalion's cold-blooded killing of 187 men, women and children at Kochang village, supposed sympathizers with leftist guerrillas.

By exposing the truth of such episodes, "we hope to heal the trauma and pain of the bereaved families," the commission says. It also wants to educate people, "not just in Korea, but throughout the international community," to the reality of that long-ago conflict, to "prevent such a tragic war from reoccurring in the future."
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There are more pictures in the Google AP site, if anyone wants to take a look.


It's not exactly news (unless people currently still digging for corpses in the Korean countryside right now counts as news). But these are things we didn't know but now do.

Heh, Douglas MacArthur. The savior of the Philippines.
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Re: News Thread

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Tis war. Ain't a pretty sight. Even I admit that.

Now, Tell me the election results! Is it Hillary or Obama! Heard Obama got another black Supremacist on his back. NOW, before Shroom tries to be cynical, I know Repubs have the same problem too, but I mean, who doesn't know a radical Right Wing fundie who uses a nigga (sorry for the term) as tissue. I mean, shouldn't the media be all over the Obama controversy? They go all over Republicans, but not Democrats. Me conspiracy self thinks that lolcat democrat is bribing CNN and other left biased medias, while FOX is with the right. Of course, to me, FOX is moderate, as they aren't as Obama bashing as CNS (Conservative News something i forgot). I mean, FOX even made Mccain look bad.

Ok Shroom, give us all that cyincal funnys, and give me a reason why the media isn't all over Obama-san.

Also, almost went back republican after listening to a talk show host explaining how Obama was bad. It was quite factual in a way, but then after he said if Democrats needed hope, they should go to Hillary. Back to Independent.

Obama: Universal Health care while giving private care a chance (life liberty and the pursuit of happiness all wrapped in a black box.)

Hillary: Universal healthcare run by her and her only (Me me me me me me me me).

That is how I compare those two. I prefer Obama, though without his personal life, followers, and military deduction.

So now, I am either content with Obama/Mccain, as long as it ain't Hillary Duff Clinton.
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Re: News Thread

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What do you mean they go all over the Republicans? They haven't. They haven't even gone all over Hillery. In this whole farce, everyone's been hurling stuff at Obama. Hell, even you did so irrationally before everyone shouted you down.

As for Fox and McCain, McCain is also disliked by some (hardcore) Republicans.

You also can't base your political views on frickin' talk show host. They're by far the least objective people in the media.

Everyone goes on about how Al Gore, or was it Kerry, flipflops. But you have McCain saying that he opposes torture, and then voting for waterboarding and enhanced interrogation, and no one calls him a slippery eel.

This is a nice list

Tis war. Ain't a pretty sight. Even I admit that.
That is why war criminals are tried in Geneva and when convicted of war crimes are hanged or shot like the animals they are.

But that never happens to the valiant defenders of truth, justice, and the American Way. Because if you systematically execute certain racial minorities in ovens and gas chambers, and put Allied POWs into slave-death-camps, you're a bad guy. But if you systematically execute innocent people who are siding with the "bad guys", well... you get to be an hero. Doubleplusgood if those people you're slaughtering are of other races considered inconvenient.

The doublestandard and the hypocrisy of the media, of history, is amazing.

How can anyone say what is fair and balanced in the media in the present when what's written in history books, things we regard as facts, things we regard as our past, is made out of cleverly construed lies and half-truths and ugly things that are hidden away like those Koreans who get buried by the thousands in the countryside?

If those were our people, there would be outrage. But they're just other people, not ours.

We get ideological and evangelical and fundamental and militant when it's our people that get killed by the thousands. When they're the ones dropping bombs on our sailors, or crashing planes into our buildings. But when it's not us who are being hurt or killed, when it's just them, it doesn't matter.

And people wonder why the world is such a wonderful place.

The ability to shrug off these "collateral damage" in the name of war is no different than the ability to shrug off pictures and videos of people jumping off burning skyscrapers.

The capacity to ignore human suffering is vital to the capacity to continue human suffering in a world already drowning it.
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Re: News Thread

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I liked how you said that, though it doesn't mean I won't support the current campaign in the Middle East (though Blackwater is being a pest, causing civilian deaths and having the military get smacked). "Why is that bastard still supporting the war? He should know that it is for oil!" You may ask. Well, here.

http://www.reasons-for-war-with-iraq.in ... _Terrorism

Best I could find. Still, I'm learning. Barely.

In my view, the real purpose was to destroy one haven for terrorists. Of course, there is faults to this, as terrorists are also harbored in America and other parts in the world. And we found WMDs, but not the type Bush has been talking about. So the problem in my view (I will hear your views, now that I am not close minded anymore) is that Bush is a horrible talker, changing goals and plans, alienating himself and the public from the real goal (whatever that may be. Lost now, thanks to Bush's inconsistency). If we had Reagon, we would have won this war by now, while keeping third world nations from demonizing this country.

But as for the link you gave me, of course it bashes Mccain. That site is an uber left wing site. It has Daily KOs as its recommended sites, as well as Left Roller or whatever the hell it was. Give me a more reliable site, like BBC or something without bias. This is like me showing you FOX news. Then again, you probably think the link I posted above is Right Wing bullshit, so touche.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7428264.stm

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Re: News Thread

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In my view, the real purpose was to destroy one haven for terrorists.
Uh, you realize we created that haven, right?
And we found WMDs, but not the type Bush has been talking about.
What WMDs? Do I need to make a words of mass distraction joke here?
If we had Reagon, we would have won this war by now,
Fuck Reagan. He's excellent for tongue-in-cheek OZC plots, not for the real-life discussion. The sheer amount of wank that goes into the guy who quadrupled our national debt in his cut taxes and spend money policies makes my head spin.
while keeping third world nations from demonizing this country.
Oh, and fuck you too. Do all the nations in Europe count as friggin' 'third world nations'?
of course it bashes Mccain. That site is an uber left wing site. It has Daily KOs as its recommended sites, as well as Left Roller or whatever the hell it was.
Do you want some honey to go with your golden mean cereal?

Seriously, Heretic. Every single time you go on your stupid rants you get dogpiled for your naivety. Do you honestly want to do this again?
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Re: News Thread

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If you had Reagan, you'd be selling guns to Iran so your best friends the Iranians would free your hostages. Then you'd be using the profits from those guns to Central American death-squads to battle the evil communists (and perhaps bury a thousand more North Koreans, how they end up in Central America, I don't know).

Dude. You didn't destroy a haven for terrorists. Prior to Operation Enduring Eastern Hemisphere Freedom Shield (or whatever the hell it's called), Al Quaeda WASN'T in Iraq and only AFTER the war did Al Quaeda end up in Iraq.

In short, the USA CREATED a haven for terrorists. After Afghanistan, Al Quaeda was weakened. After Iraq, they got RECHARGED!

Iraq during Saddam was shitty, post-Iraq Saddam was even shittier.

From the mouth of an Iraqi

What WMDs are you talking about?


As for John McCain:

WIKI
In October 2007, McCain said of waterboarding that, "They [other presidential candidates] should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture."[17] However, in February 2008 he voted against HR 2082, the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008, which included provisions that would have prevented the CIA from waterboarding prisoners.
In January 2005, McCain said that "one of our big problems has been the fact that many Iraqis resent American military presence. ... as soon as we can reduce our visibility as much as possible, the better I think it is going to be."
On January 3, 2008 at a campaign stop in Derry, New Hampshire, when a questioner said, "President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years," McCain responded:

"Make it a hundred. We've been in Japan for 60 years, we've been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That'd be fine with me as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That's fine with me. I hope it will be fine with you if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training, recruiting, equipping, and motivating people every single day."
Remember that time I quoted to you what Obama said during the early days of the Iraq War (or was it before the war, I forgot) wherein he said it was a "BAD IDEA"?

At least Obama's saying the same thing now as he did back then. With McCain, who knows what color the sky is gonna be tomorrow?
In 1999, McCain said of Roe v. Wade, "I'd love to see a point where it is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."[144][145] On February 18, 2007, however, McCain stated, "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned."
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Basically, McCain has flipped flopped. That's why a lot of Republicans in power don't like him. He says something that's like what the Democrats would say "hay, abortions! troops out of Iraq!" and the next day he goes "no abortions! troops stay!" and maybe next week, he'll go "abortions for some! miniature american flags for everyone else!"
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Re: News Thread

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"John, my relatives are Sunni, Christian, and Shiite. They've been living under saddam's dictatorship for thirty years. I've lost more relatives in the last four years than in the thirty years of Saddam so I don't think you can tell me how dangerous Saddam's dictatorship was."

Let me write down what the woman says. Since reading is easier.
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Re: News Thread

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Well, i'm not going to be like what I was, so let us all sit down, have tea, and discuss like gentlemen, and not have a cuss contest. The more I hear Mobius and Dakarne swear, the more I like what I am.
Uh, you realize we created that haven, right?
Terrorists come in, they die. There.
What WMDs? Do I need to make a words of mass distraction joke here?
Here is the definition from the U.S. Military Dictionary:
In arms control usage, weapons that are capable of a high order of destruction and/or of being used in such a manner as to destroy large numbers of people. The term can be applied to nuclear, chemical, biological, and radiological weapons, but excludes the means of transporting or propelling the weapon where such means is a separable and divisible part of the weapon.
Suran Gas? VX? Though not something from Bush's fantasies, they do kill massive amounts of people and are against the Geneva Convention.
Fuck Reagan. He's excellent for tongue-in-cheek OZC plots, not for the real-life discussion. The sheer amount of wank that goes into the guy who quadrupled our national debt in his cut taxes and spend money policies makes my head spin.
I'm talking about his speaking, Mobius. Anyway, that is your opinion. Other people, not elitists, but normal people also prospered by tax cuts. Of course, there was that Iran mistake, so I give you credit there.

Oh, and fuck you too. Do all the nations in Europe count as friggin' 'third world nations'?
Generalization. I was thinking more of the Asian/African nations. I would be assed to call Europe third world. Luxemberg (I think it was) is the richest nation in the world last time I checked.
Do you want some honey to go with your golden mean cereal?

Seriously, Heretic. Every single time you go on your stupid rants you get dogpiled for your naivety. Do you honestly want to do this again?
Nativity? We will see who is naive. Ok, I will be dogpiled no doubt, but at least I should get a D- for giving facts of some sort. Right?

Shroom:

Well, I'll see what happens. I am not in a position to really dictate anyone (unless it is Hillary Duff Clinton), so I have to wait and see. Maybe a new generation of liberals who are actually progressives show me the fault of my ways and send me to butterfly and rainbow land, or maybe a socialist government will thwart my dreams of a corporation, and I go on a killing spree. Who knows. I guess I will have to wait and see what bullets life will hit me with.
Also, that is one women's opinion. Not that it is junk, as everyone's opinion is important, but what about the hundred others who lost their relatives to Suddam? They would rather have a Bush dicatorship (heaven forbid) than another day with Suddam. I guess we need to consider everyone's opinion. And so that I don't fall into the "easier said than done" category, i shall be reading your fine articles of Kerryism in Mccain. Of course, I was hoping for Giuliani anyway, so not my loss.

*sips tea and adjusts monocles, while scratching moustache*
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Re: News Thread

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Heretic wrote:Well, i'm not going to be like what I was, so let us all sit down, have tea, and discuss like gentlemen, and not have a cuss contest. The more I hear Mobius and Dakarne swear, the more I like what I am.
Screw your style over substance.
Terrorists come in, they die. There.
Yeah, they die. By blowing themselves up and taking our soldiers with it.
Suran Gas? VX? Though not something from Bush's fantasies, they do kill massive amounts of people and are against the Geneva Convention.
Prove that they found gas labs, you twit.
I'm talking about his speaking, Mobius. Anyway, that is your opinion. Other people, not elitists, but normal people also prospered by tax cuts. Of course, there was that Iran mistake, so I give you credit there.
So you're going to stick your fingers in your ears and call me an elitist. Reagan was a moron, plain and simple. What part of taxes do you morons not understand? How the hell are you going to pay for your massive spending without taxes? Does the money come out of fucking nowhere? The tax cuts went straight to the rich, twit. Not to your plucky normal people.
Generalization. I was thinking more of the Asian/African nations. I would be assed to call Europe third world. Luxemberg (I think it was) is the richest nation in the world last time I checked.
Funny. The people who spoke out most against the war were the Europeans, not some buttcrack nation in Africa.
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Re: News Thread

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READ

BBC
The US military says levels of violence in Iraq are at their lowest for four years, but what psychological effect has constant unrest had on ordinary Iraqis? Caroline Wyatt returns to Baghdad after a 10-year absence to find out.

The Baghdad I remembered was a sprawling city, a place of honking horns and barely-controlled anarchy on the roads.

Amid the narrow, uneven pavements of the gold market, I jostled for space with shoppers peering closely at the gold necklaces given to brides at their wedding.

As a Westerner, I felt safe. After all, the secret police were everywhere. My government minder was never more than two steps behind, sometimes so close he would trip over my microphone lead, apologising profusely.

There was no forgetting who was in charge in those days.

Every government building bore images of Saddam Hussein, in all his guises... holding the scales of justice at the courthouse, cockily brandishing a shotgun as an Austrian-style huntsman in lederhosen, or my personal favourite... the massive poster on the telecom building showing a grinning Saddam chatting on a bright, pink telephone.

This week I have been driving through Baghdad in the back of an armoured vehicle.

No government minder this time. Four British security advisers instead.

The traffic around us is as anarchic as ever, now jammed together as cars approach the frequent armed checkpoints and the old bustle starts to return.

If this was a city ruled by insidious, creeping fear before, the new nervousness is much more concrete, quite literally. There are big blast walls everywhere by the sides of the roads to contain the force of a suicide or roadside bomb.

Soothing the pain

The scars of the past five years of war and anarchy are visible everywhere. The blue summer sky now shines through the bombed carcass of the telecoms ministry, its poster long since ripped down.

But the mental scars are harder to see.

At Baghdad's only psychiatric hospital, the chief consultant, Dr Amir Husain, has devoted the last five years to treating patients traumatised by the violence.

In the busy waiting room, the paint is peeling from the walls as if scraped off by desperate fingertips.

An anxious woman in black puts her arm around her young son, and smiles a nervous greeting, before we disappear into Dr Husain's tiny consulting room.

He has a kind face and a soothing manner.

He nearly did not make it in to work today. An explosion near his home saw the streets sealed off by the army, so he abandoned his car and walked instead.

The day before, yet another colleague was killed.

'Sane response'

Dr Husain is one of just four psychiatrists. The other seven were killed, kidnapped, threatened or they fled abroad.

"Before the last war, we faced many psychiatric problems because of the hardship of life under sanctions," he tells me. "After the invasion, everything changed. Some said life was better, some that it was much, much worse."

So his list of patients grew.

From mild anxiety, to grief and depression, schizophrenia or post-traumatic stress disorder, it strikes me that his patients' symptoms were a sane response to the madness around them.

Dr Husain and his colleagues also seem a little anxious. They, too, suffer from insomnia, and a tendency to duck at loud noises.

"We are having our own psychological difficulties," he admits, with a tired smile. His eyes are bloodshot with lack of sleep.

"We are always racing against time, dealing with shortages and fighting with the ministry for drugs or equipment to help our patients."

At first, he is reluctant to talk about his own problems, but then he says: "I have lost my colleagues, my friends, some of my family... but we are used to it now. Our emotions have been frozen."

So why does HE not leave Iraq?

"I won't," he says. "We come to work here every day because we've given our patients a promise to help them and we have to continue. Things will get better."

He says a new doctor arrived today, a man who specialises in child psychiatry.

It is, Dr Husain believes, a small sign of hope.

Offering support

Six checkpoints later, behind the even thicker blast walls of the Green Zone, I talk to the softly spoken UN envoy to Iraq, a Swedish Italian with a sing-song voice, Staffan de Mistura.

He has taken on one of the UN's riskiest jobs, in part to prove that his friend and predecessor Sergio Viera di Mello did not die in vain when he was killed by an insurgent's bomb that shattered the UN compound.

"This is not a poor country. It's got $70bn in oil revenues this year," he points out. "As security improves, there is no reason why there should not be sanitation, medical care or electricity... quickly."

So what makes him work in one of the world's most dangerous places?

It is, he says, the Iraqis themselves.

"Have you seen the people in the streets just after a bomb attack?" he asks me.

"A few minutes afterwards you see them cleaning up, turning the page. For a moment, they cry, they show their anger, but then the Iraqis go and just get on with the job, as they have throughout their history.

"Now we need to give them the feeling that they are not alone."

Hey.

Suran Gas? VX? Though not something from Bush's fantasies, they do kill massive amounts of people and are against the Geneva Convention.
Those particular weapons found by the Coalition forces are particularly old and expired. AND they weren't made during the post-Gulf War period. They were decades old, ancient. Bush and your country was wrong when it said Saddam was creating a stockpile of WMDs. All he had was a bunch of crappy ancient shitty fossilized chemical weapons that he didn't even bother to use because they were so shitty and ancient!

I hate having to use WIKI as a source, but it's a quick reference.
On May 16, 2004 a 152 mm artillery shell was used as an improvised bomb.(Iraq's Chemical Warfare Program Annex F. Retrieved on 2005-06-29.) The shell exploded and two U.S. soldiers were treated for minor exposure to a nerve agent (nausea and dilated pupils). On May 18 it was reported by U.S. Department of Defense intelligence officials that tests showed the two-chambered shell contained the chemical agent sarin, the shell being "likely" to have contained three to four liters of the substance (in the form of its two unmixed precursor chemicals prior to the aforementioned explosion that had not effectively mixed them).[74] Former U.S. weapons inspector David Kay told the Associated Press that "he doubted the shell or the nerve agent came from a hidden stockpile, although he didn't rule out that possibility." Kay also considered it possible that the shell was "an old relic overlooked when Saddam said he had destroyed such weapons in the mid-1990s."[75] It is likely that the insurgents who planted the bomb did not know it contained sarin, according to Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, and another U.S. official confirmed that the shell did not have the markings of a chemical agent.[75] The Iraq Survey Group later concluded that the shell "probably originated with a batch that was stored in a Al Muthanna CW complex basement during the late 1980s for the purpose of leakage testing." (Iraq's Chemical Warfare Program Annex F. Retrieved on 2005-06-29.)
So your WMDs are practically ancient AND factory rejected!

And do you know what else? Who gave Iraq it's chemical weapons?

Wiki
Chemical weapons which had been delivered[citation needed] to Saddam Hussein killed and injured numerous Iranian and Iraqis. According to Iraqi documents, assistance in developing chemical weapons was obtained from firms in many countries, including the United States, West Germany, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, France and China.
Congratulations.

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Let's shake hands with future SecDef Donald Rumsfeld! :mrgreen:

And you know what I said about historical hypocrisy (alliterations!)?

Agent Orange
Agent Orange is the code name for a powerful herbicide and defoliant used by the U.S. military in its Herbicidal Warfare program during the Vietnam War. During the Vietnam War, an estimated 20 million gallons of Agent Orange were deployed in South Vietnam.
Here is a picture gallery! Lots of shiny pictures for the children!

Or you can GOOGEL it!



As for tax cuts. Well, if you give tax cuts to the rich, then who is going to be paying for the government? The middle class and the lower-class.

Why should those who earn millions of USDs be given tax cuts while the middle and lower class don't get tax cuts? Maybe... because the middle and lower class... earn lesser money... they can... pay taxes easier... than the rich!

Paying taxes is hard if you're a millionaire.
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Re: News Thread

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Heretic wrote:Terrorists come in, they die. There.
Yea-ah, taking at current count 4084 Americans with them.

I really shouldn't have to explain this to you (but I will because I don't think you get it), you do realize hopefully that the number of terrorists in the world is not some set number that you can deplete, right? You do realize that terrorists aren't a natural resource like oil that there's a fixed amount of, and when the last barrel's been pumped out of the ground (or the last terrorist's been shot), then that's the end of that? You do realize that isn't how it works, right?

Because if you did, then you'd also realize that antagonizing the people who already hate your guts means that you spawn more terrorists - and conversely that if you'd left well enough alone, then those same people would probably be doing something other than blowing themselves up in the faces of your soldiers. Because contrary to what a lot of idiots seem to believe, most people don't enjoy blowing themselves to bits for shits and giggles. You've got to seriously piss people off before they resort to things like that. If you don't give them cause to try and kill you, then they'll likely won't try and kill you.

Even worse, you've not only given a lot of folks a reason to try and kill you, you've also given them one heckuva target - all those dudes on the ground in Iraq, to be precise. See, let's assume that Jihadi Joe from downtown Sadr City wants to kill him some Americans (for some inexplicable reason), but the Americans aren't in Iraq. How's he going to achieve his goal of killing Americans then? He can't, because theres no obvious target around. These people aren't part of a Brotherhood of Nod style organization with vast assets all around the world: they're cash-strapped bozo's from the arse-ends of the world. They're not going to be some tremendous threat to America. The last batch to actually achieve anything did so with box cutters as their weapon of choice.

Anyway, so if there's no Americans in Iraq, then that means our Joe is shit outta luck. But then, there ARE Americans in Iraq now. And apart from the fact that the invasion gave Joe even more incentive to try and kill said Americans (since they blew up his family, treat the survivors like shit, cut power, demolished cities, etc. etc.) he's now also got 150-odd thousand troops to target.

See how simple this is? No invasion = no dead Americans. Invasion = dead Americans. It doesn't get much simpler than that. This whole "fight them over there so you don't have to fight them over here" schtick is bullshit.

Suran Gas? VX? Though not something from Bush's fantasies, they do kill massive amounts of people and are against the Geneva Convention.
First off it's Sarin, not Suran. Second of all, whatever shell casings you found were degraded leftovers from the Iran-Iraq War, not weapons newly fabricated in Colin Powell's nonexistant mobile biowarfare laboratories. Thirdly, I don't think Iraq at any stage possessed VX.
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Re: News Thread

Post by Heretic »

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Artic ... yths.htm#2

This is all I have against you Siege. At least give me a D-. And don't mind the messed up ? typos.

Of course, though we all have our own undestroyable (mostly) opinions about the war, we all agree that there should be healthcare and welfare.

Welfare: I realized that if 60 million Americans are homeless, then it doesn't mean all of them are lazy. Even a developed country like America isn't like that. Maybe the IRS? Don't know.

Healthcare: It is constitutional. Why did I ever hate this when it was within the limits of the Constitution that I adore (Life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness.), when I supported the Iraq War, which though I believe is necessary, unconstitutional? Hypocrisy right there.
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Re: News Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

You do realize that thanks to the occupation in Iraq, they don't have to go through complicated missions requiring lots of resources and sleeper cells and martyrs, that anyone and his dynamite-strapped donkey can kill Americans in Iraq?

Why should OBL even bother planning another op like 9/11? That plan probably took YEARS to do. Yet without the same amount of planning, in the same span of time as it took to orchestrate the 9/11 attacks, they killed thousands of Americans more.


I'd trust my source of heathens and atheistic asshole debators over that right-wing hackjob site "religion of peace" any day, however.
The Iraq Heath Minstry says 151,000 dead to violence to 400,000 total dead for other reasons since the war started. Lancet(Which we never had a problem with until they did Iraq) says 601,027 dead to violence to 654,965 total dead for other reasons since the war started and the ORB study(Using the Lancet methodoly) produced just over 1 million dead Iraq's.

The Lancet study methodology has been used in Bosina, the Congo and various other African conflicts with no issues, in fact the Bush administration (HW and W) and the Clinton administrations praised their work and accurasy. Until they got to Iraq and produced the intial 250,000 dead Iraq numbers which was much higher than the 10,000-30,000 numbers being tossed around at the time.

Since then both they and ORB went back(Lancet in 2006, ORB in 2007)
No 2008 studies have been done yet so we don't know how bad it's gotten.

YOU: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Artic ... yths.htm#2
Since America made terrorism a national defense issue, rather than a legal matter, and began building allies in the battle, totalitarian regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq have been overthrown and replaced by democracies. The world is no longer threatened by Saddam Hussein, or forced into guessing games regarding his WMD programs. Syria has been pressured into ending a very brutal occupation of Lebanon, and elections have been held there, as well as in Egypt. Libya has given up its WMD program and surrendered its stockpiles. Islamic terrorists are under pressure across the globe now from Pakistan to the Philippines.
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Tell me if the pic doesn't show.
There is no perfect solution to terrorism, but the passive approach taken in the 1990�s obviously has far harsher consequences for citizens in the West. The American policy of non-confrontation and appeasement was rewarded with successively bolder attacks against military, diplomatic, and civilian targets, culminating in the loss of 3,000 innocents on 9/11.
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For 1400 years, Islamic terrorists have always found reasons for hating and killing unsubmissive infidels, in keeping with the teachings of their religion. No amount of appeasement will ever change this.
That is from the website you linked to.

Goddamn those filthy fucking ragheaded camel-humping sand-niggers!

I say we kill the lot of them and convert those who are left to Christianity! - Ann Coulter


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SPARTAFREEDOMERICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[It's also downright ignorant to assume that Muslims are a bunch of savages. Before the Renaissance, the Muslims were actually more advanced than Western European society. The Arabs were practicing surgery, and were resurrecting Greco-Hellenistic concepts and arts and sciences long since forgotten - from Plato's stuff to Hippocrates.

Let's not forget that awesome dudes like Saladin were totally cool with allowing Jews and Christians into the Holy Land for pilgrimages, or to just live there for however long they wanted.

More than can be said about Martin Luthor, founder of Lutheranism. Or those devoutly Christian Germans in the 1930s when they democratically and freedomanily elected this dude with a funny moustache.

When the Crusaders conquered the Holy Land, they slaughtered the Muslims until the streets ran red with blood. A hundred years later, when Saladin and the Arabs won it back, Saladin allowed the Crusaders he captured to go home to Europe.]
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Re: News Thread

Post by Siege »

Heretic wrote:http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Artic ... yths.htm#2

This is all I have against you Siege. At least give me a D-. And don't mind the messed up ? typos.
How long did you spend on Google to find that page? And did you actually read anything it says? Because if you did, then you would know that it doesn't even support your point.

Let's assume that that site's right, and the insurgency is an exclusively Sunni thing whose members target Shiites and Americans because they're pissed off at being kicked out of office after the fall of Saddam (disregarding for a moment all the guys like Mukhtada al-Sadr's Badr-brigade, who are Shiites and also hate the guts of all Americans in the country)... If that's the case, then why the bloody fuck are you fighting them "over there"? Do you honestly believe the Sunni's give a crap about CONUS? They want to rule their Mesopotamian patch of dirt and oppress the Shiites and Kurds, why would they give a crap about the USA?

If the insurgency is Sunni, then "fighting them over there" is just idiotic. Why on Earth do you fight guys "over there" if those guys aren't interested in the first place in fighting "over here"?

Of course, though we all have our own undestroyable (mostly) opinions about the war, we all agree that there should be healthcare and welfare.
Fantastic. Now do you also realize that if you hadn't blown a trillion dollars on this stupid war you could've had healthcare and enough money left to feed, oh, roughly all of Africa?
"Nick Fury. Old-school cold warrior. The original black ops hardcase. Long before I stepped off a C-130 at Da Nang, Fury and his team had set fire to half of Asia." - Frank Castle

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Re: News Thread

Post by Heretic »

Let's assume that that site's right, and the insurgency is an exclusively Sunni thing whose members target Shiites and Americans because they're pissed off at being kicked out of office after the fall of Saddam (disregarding for a moment all the guys like Mukhtada al-Sadr's Badr-brigade, who are Shiites and also hate the guts of all Americans in the country)... If that's the case, then why the bloody fuck are you fighting them "over there"? Do you honestly believe the Sunni's give a crap about CONUS? They want to rule their Mesopotamian patch of dirt and oppress the Shiites and Kurds, why would they give a crap about the USA?
WTF? Did the site really say only Sunni?! Shi'ites are also involved (Iranians). Weird. Siege: 1
Fantastic. Now do you also realize that if you hadn't blown a trillion dollars on this stupid war you could've had healthcare and enough money left to feed, oh, roughly all of Africa?
If this was about Africa, we would go kill some the Sudanese Islamic government. They killed more Darfurians than the Israelis to Palestinian Infitadas. And the UN, who everyone claims is big and powerful, should be focused on that then.
Let's not forget that awesome dudes like Saladin were totally cool with allowing Jews and Christians into the Holy Land for pilgrimages, or to just live there for however long they wanted.
Loved Saladin. He had balls. So did most Muslims before something happened. Guess it was the Assassins (damn Assassin Creed), mixed with Osama's fanaticalism. Say, being a Independent as I am now, I am not afraid to ask this question: Why did we help the Mujahadden during the Afghan War? Was it the Red Scare, even though we were gaining better relations with the USSR? I mean, I like the Russian Federation's Spetnaz which is sexier than KGB, but what is the point of still fighting a dying empire with risky secret ops wars? Can't we just send Capitalist made Jelly Beans instead? I wasn't there, so I don't know much details about what the hell happened.

And the site does have crazies in it, but it does have proof that Islamists are in larger numbers than you think, and CAIR is just a whiny organization that deserves no balls.

Man, thank you Anthony Robbins for your empowering books on gaining identity and confidence. I wouldn't have survived this without you!
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Re: News Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Heretic wrote:And the site does have crazies in it, but it does have proof that Islamists are in larger numbers than you think, and CAIR is just a whiny organization that deserves no balls.
Dude.

Siege said:

I really shouldn't have to explain this to you (but I will because I don't think you get it), you do realize hopefully that the number of terrorists in the world is not some set number that you can deplete, right? You do realize that terrorists aren't a natural resource like oil that there's a fixed amount of, and when the last barrel's been pumped out of the ground (or the last terrorist's been shot), then that's the end of that? You do realize that isn't how it works, right?

What's a CAIR?
Heretic wrote:Why did we help the Mujahadden during the Afghan War?
Because the Mujahadeen are a brave and noble people, our brothers in the fight against the evils of communism! Their strong faith is their shield against that Red Atheist Menace, and so we must aid them in their glorious struggle! *ships Stinger missiles to Afghanistan*

Same with Saddam Hussein. The Iraqis are a brave and noble people, our brothers in the fight against the evils of Iran! Saddam is a just leader, and his secularism shields him from the fundamental religious fanatics of Iran, and so we must aid them in their glorious struggle! *ships Sarin gas to Iraq*

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I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers. Thank you.

Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
George W. Bush, September 20, 2001

As Americans, we want peace -- we work and sacrifice for peace. But there can be no peace if our security depends on the will and whims of a ruthless and aggressive dictator. I'm not willing to stake one American life on trusting Saddam Hussein.
George W. Bush, October 7, 2002
:mrgreen:

Man. What a big joke. All fifty states of star-spangled gut-busting hilarity (hillary-ty?). That 4,075's worth of stockpiled nuclear comedy. And the sheer humor of 4,079 dead Ameri...

Wait. That's not funny at all.

[This is funny though:

George W. Bush: What an impressive crowd: the haves, and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base.]

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wiki wrote:In an unprecedented move in modern US history, eight retired generals and admirals called for Rumsfeld to resign in early 2006 in what was called the "Generals Revolt", mostly because of disgust at what they regarded as his abysmal military planning and lack of strategic competence. Rumsfeld rebuffed these criticisms, stating that "out of thousands and thousands of admirals and generals, if every time two or three people disagreed we changed the secretary of defense of the United States, it would be like a merry-go-round." Conservative commentator Pat Buchanan reports that "Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, who travels often to Iraq and supports the war, says that the generals' and admirals' views mirror those of 75 percent of the officers in the field, and probably more." President Bush responded to the criticism by stating that Rumsfeld is "exactly what is needed," and also defended him in his controversial decider remark.
"I hear the voices, and I read the front page, and I know the speculation. But I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the secretary of defense."
On November 1, 2006, President Bush stated he would stand by Rumsfeld as defense secretary for the length of his term as president.[64] Rumsfeld wrote a resignation letter dated November 6, and, per the stamp on the letter, Bush saw it on Election Day, November 7. In the elections, the House and the Senate shifted to Democratic control.
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(yup, that's still him)

Aw, mang. They'll have to find someone else aside from Rumsfeld to make deals with friends and allies of America like Saddam and Osama! But then again, Rummy was getting a bit old. We need someone young and vigorous and long and strong and hard to work with these noble freedom fighters and valiant dictators in the name of American interests.

Damn it. If von Reagan was still around, we'd still be giving Saddam some Sarin so he could gas those goddamn Kurds and goddamn Iranians. And Stingers to OBL so he could crash some passenger planes or something.

*sighs* I miss the good old days where we all know right from wrong, where things were so moral, when it was all so simple and black and white and we could depend and trust and have faith in America to sell weapons of mass destruction to those whom we love and cherish and treasure.

*sighs dreamily*

We know that dictators are quick to choose aggression, while free nations strive to resolve differences in peace. We know that oppressive governments support terror, while free governments fight the terrorists in their midst. We know that free peoples embrace progress and life, instead of becoming the recruits for murderous ideologies.

George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly, September 21, 2004
It's not a matter of whether the war is not real, or if it is, Victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia but to keep the very structure of society intact."

- 1984, George Orwell
Strangely prophetic words from a mang who wrote that story book right after World War 2.


EDIT:

ONE MOAR TIME!
For too long, many nations, including my own, tolerated, even excused, oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. Oppression became common, but stability never arrived. We must take a different approach. We must help the reformers of the Middle East as they work for freedom, and strive to build a community of peaceful, democratic nations.

George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly, September 21, 2004
This obviously does not apply to oppressors in the Middle East who have shitloads of oil.

Petrol. Oil. Black Gold. GASOLINE!!!

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Especially if they're daddy's friends.

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Awww... Saudi Arabia! You're breaking my heart! Just like by the lake in Naboo! Anakin, I loved you! You were like a brother to me!

[Doesn't help that Saudi Arabia's military is composed of state-of-the-art American-sold F-15s and M1 Abrams tanks. And now they're getting Eurofighters from the UK, or so I heard. HOORAY!

All we need now is for the Saudi Arabians to fly airplanes into a bunch of skyscrapers twenty years from now and if Donald Rumsfeld is still alive, I can maybe find us some pictures of Rummy shaking hands with Saudi Arabia's ruler.

Oh wait. Saudi Arabians DID fly airplanes into skyscrapers. Most of those 9/11 hijackers were...]

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Aww, don't worry Saudi Arabia, I could never stay mad at you... teehee!

^________^
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Re: News Thread

Post by Siege »

Heretic wrote:Say, being a Independent as I am now, I am not afraid to ask this question: Why did we help the Mujahadden during the Afghan War? Was it the Red Scare, even though we were gaining better relations with the USSR?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Or so some people seem to believe. Remember kids, the Northern Alliance warlords who helped the Russians were bad people when the Russians were still Soviets, but they're the good guys now, even though they're still fighting our good guys from twenty years hence! Oh and before you forget, we've always been at war with Eurasia!

At least the warlords are consistent.

I mean, I like the Russian Federation's Spetnaz which is sexier than KGB, but what is the point of still fighting a dying empire with risky secret ops wars? Can't we just send Capitalist made Jelly Beans instead? I wasn't there, so I don't know much details about what the hell happened.
Ronald Reagan is what happened.
And the site does have crazies in it, but it does have proof that Islamists are in larger numbers than you think, and CAIR is just a whiny organization that deserves no balls.
How on Earth can you claim that the the site proves there are more Islamists than I think when you don't even know how many Islamists I think there are?
"Nick Fury. Old-school cold warrior. The original black ops hardcase. Long before I stepped off a C-130 at Da Nang, Fury and his team had set fire to half of Asia." - Frank Castle

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Off naked Chatham show,
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Re: News Thread

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Nonetheless we must always be hospitable and polite when the Saudi Emperor visits us.

Then we shall sell him M1A2 Abrams and F-15E Strike Eagles. For oilz!

Mang, Saddam and OBL would be jealous. M1A2s and F-15Es are way more fancy than widdle Sarin and Stingers.

And I heard the Brits are gonna give 'em Eurofighters, too!

Saudi Arabia... I wuuuv youuu! ^____^
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Re: News Thread

Post by Vagrant Orpheus »

Heya guys. Got some good news!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... 8689.story

Australia's leaving Iraq. And the US deaths this month are at a record low. This is all good stuff.
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