The Fourth Sphere - A Collaborative Fantasy 'verse

[Czernobog]

The Magocracy of Tzaranath
Size: 15 square miles (the city itself), 15,940 square miles (the surrounding territory)
Government: Magocratic Republic
Other Names: Tzaranath

The Magocracy of Tzaranath, on the western shore of the large continent of Serica, to the far east of the continent of Lucia, is a proud city-state that trades frequently with the Lucian continent, which it is divided from by a thousand-mile wide stretch of shallow water known as the Drowned Road, because the water is so clear and so shallow that natural features and ruins can be seen on the seabed. According to legend, the Drowned Road was once a vast empire that was drowned by the gods as a punishment for their sinful ways - clearly the presence of Alfar on both continents indicates that the two were once connected by some manner of land-bridge. But let us digress, and focus on Tzaranath itself.

Tzaranath is a city of about 1 million souls, kept from famine by its fertile soil and the impressive magical abilities of its people. About 65 percent of its population are magic-wielders - about 40 percent higher than most other cities. This is most likely due to Tzaranath attracting large amounts of magic-wielders, due to it being seen as a safe environment (even with religious and government allowance, and, indeed, endorsement of magicians, rural, undeveloped areas commonly see magic-wielders as unnatural). About 75 percent of its population are humans, 10 percent half-Alfar, and 15 percent Alfar.

Tzaranath is built heavily out of stone, to reduce the risk of fire, and has a large sanitation system to reduce disease. As such, it is known as 'the Diamond of Serica', in reference to its apparent wealth.

Tzaranath's governing body, the Council of Magi, are appointed by its ruler, the Grand Magus. But democracy on important and trivial issues is allowed, even encouraged, by the government - but only magic-users are allowed to vote. Non-magicians are somewhat looked down upon in Tzaranath, and in turn distrust their own government, viewing them as incomprehensible, too busy gazing out across the land from their ivory towers to help them deal with their problems.

The people of Tzaranath are safeguarded by the military of the city. Known as the Cerulean Guard (after House Cerulean that founded and leads it), this military is small but well-trained and disciplined, made primarily out of magic-users, and also serves in a policing role, guarding the city watching its borders, and protecting its people from criminals. Its remit is not investigation, that is the task of the Unshadowed Eye, the secret police of the city.

Tzaranath's nobility is divided into Houses, and is primarily made up of magic-wielders. There are exactly 21 Houses, 12 Major and 9 Minor. Major Houses have the most say in the runnings of the city, while Minor Houses act like nobility the world over - constantly planning to rise even further in the ranks. This class of mage-nobility is unique in Tzaranath in that it has a say in who becomes the Grand Magus after the previous one dies. Furthermore, many merchants live in Tzaranath due to it being seen as a safe, ordered place to live in and sell their wares, and the lower classes have little say in how they live. Tzaranath also is close to the sea, allowing merchants from the Lucian continent to go to it.

Tzaranath, however, has a sinister underbelly - almost everyone in the city is watched by the Unshadowed Eye, the secret police, especially foreigners. Only the Council are above suspicion. The city is also at odds with the vast nation of Serica, especially as they are not willing to reveal their secrets. This rivalry has not turned to outright war, however, as Serica sees Tzaranath as a good place to sell its goods, and is not willing to alienate them, not seeing them as simple barbarians like most foreigners are to Serica.

[speaker-to-trolls]

^The above is confusing. It's a republic but it's ruled by this Grand Magus fellow who appoints the government, all from the ranks of a small group of nobility. Unless the Grand Magus is himself elected then this can't be called a republic, or at least, it could be called one (Augustus continued to call Rome the Republic after he took over and killed everyone who disagreed with him) but you ought to point out the discrepancy.

Also

clearly the presence of Alfar on both continents indicates that the two were once connected by some manner of land-bridge.

No it doesn't, otherwise the presence of humans in Australia and Southeast Asia would indicate the two were once connected by a land bridge, or Asia and Hawaii, etc. UNLESS, there is some specific Alfaric trait which makes them unable to cross water, which could be interesting, if awkward for them.

[Czernobog]

^The above is confusing. It's a republic but it's ruled by this Grand Magus fellow who appoints the government, all from the ranks of a small group of nobility. Unless the Grand Magus is himself elected then this can't be called a republic, or at least, it could be called one (Augustus continued to call Rome the Republic after he took over and killed everyone who disagreed with him) but you ought to point out the discrepancy.

Also

clearly the presence of Alfar on both continents indicates that the two were once connected by some manner of land-bridge.

No it doesn't, otherwise the presence of humans in Australia and Southeast Asia would indicate the two were once connected by a land bridge, or Asia and Hawaii, etc. UNLESS, there is some specific Alfaric trait which makes them unable to cross water, which could be interesting, if awkward for them.

The mage-nobility of the city have a say on who the Grand Magus is (after the previous Grand Magus dies, of course), but the rest of the mages only have a say on policy.

As for the Alfar, the Alfar originated on the Lucian continent ten thousand years ago, spreading to Serica 500 years later, and no evidence is found of them having a boat-building culture around this time, which makes the existence of a sunken land-bridge (along with the strange nature of the Drowned Road) extremely likely.

[speaker-to-trolls]

The mage-nobility of the city have a say on who the Grand Magus is (after the previous Grand Magus dies, of course), but the rest of the mages only have a say on policy.

Fair dos, so the GM is elected by the noble houses from among their number and he presumably stuffs his cabinet with the families of the people who voted for him. I like the system in principle, though if the Magus serves a lifetime term I epect that it would quickly become really dictatorial, since the ruling Magus would persecute the families who voted against him as much as he possibly could, and would have the support of most of the nobility in doing so. I imagine there would actually be quite a high turnover of houses from outside immigration or middle class/lesser nobility moving up the ladder after a family who backed the wrong horse was thrown out. Well, I'd throw them out (if I couldn't kill them, outside the city=access to mercenaries) if I were Magus.

As for the Alfar, the Alfar originated on the Lucian continent ten thousand years ago, spreading to Serica 500 years later, and no evidence is found of them having a boat-building culture around this time, which makes the existence of a sunken land-bridge (along with the strange nature of the Drowned Road) extremely likely.

OK. The Drowned Road, yes, that makes sense, but this bolded part is a problem since you are writing this 'in character' as it were, from the perspective of someone in the world who does not have all the facts. How are iron age people supposed to know whether there was a boat building culture ten thousand years ago? All they are likely to have are myths from that long ago.

[Invictus]

It actually would be the underworld, if my fossil soul idea takes off maybe it's even where the dead go. Incidentally, do you imagine The Scour being a place where the gravity is reversed so that people stand upright with the gas giant sky above them, or where the gravity remains the same so they live in caves and the like with the sky below them?

You know, either option seems pretty cool. If the Shell provides gravity in both directions, the inhabitants of the Scour will live under an unfathomably large and murky sky. If the latter, they will end up developing a pretty exotic worldview. The former, though, seems to be more consistent. Having all living rock provide some kind of pull to their closest surface means we don't have to ask this question again for the moon-continents and inner worlds. Speaking of which, the Core would definitely be where people believe the gods live.

Evil malignant moon continents: Again, I like it, the world literally cutting the cancer out of itself (alternately it could try to melt the entire area, but that might well cause it too much damage). But my question is this; what happens if bits of the malignancy's orbits degrade and they fall back to the world? Will they be safely dead or will they start growing again? If they're likely to start growing again the world will need some kind of protection against them, or something to remove them once they return. Since it's looking more and more as if this living stone stuff has some control over gravity, what say it has some kind of shepherd moon system to keep them from coming back? It could fire the moons off into space in the same way, into orbits that would mean that they keep the malignant continents in check. Of course, bits of them could still escape, leading to strange, malignant things sometimes falling from the sky, hence the moon continents are sources of evil to the people.

The Deep; I like that term. The general mechanism is that the lava (and the cold of space, and the subsequent trauma of re-collision) hopefully destroys whatever malignancy that is in the land, so the material can be safely absorbed. I know it doesn't seem like a precise mechanism, but it seems like the kind of long-term, large-scale solution that a living planet would develop. However, like how planetary ecosystems tend to deal poorly with civilization in general, this won't be enough to cleanse malignant creatures that get particularly magical or technologically advanced. I'm not entirely sure how the shepherd moons will work, but since the gas giant is probably swarming with satellites already, it doesn't hurt to have a few non-evil moons. Though at the bottom line, ejecting malignancies into space is a very drastic step to take for the planet, since it causes a permanent loss of mass.

I think of the world shell (and however much of the world is part of this system) as being largely unconscious, so I wonder how much influence it could potentially have over living things to do its work for it, for example I'm not sure if it fits for malignant regions to make people want to mine from them to spread their evil. I had the idea that the world shell causes life to take root on it by MAGIC, so maybe it has a link to all the life growing on it, with the strongest link being to plants and the most tenuous to higher animals. Malignant regions would end up with a weird, twisted ecology because of this.

Well, I'm not sure what Malignancy actually is. What do you have in mind?

[Invictus]

Double-posting kata!

A lot has been done on the mechanics of the world itself, but what about the cosmos that lies beyond it? I have my doubts that a setup with a regular sun and regular orbital mechanics would work, since it gives me a headache trying to envision what a day looks like on a world like this with a curvature much gentler than Earth's, or the ridiculous speed the planet would have to rotate to produce a remotely relatable day, or the kind of axial tilt it must have to ensure seasons as the polar regions of this world would receive much less light and heat when compared to Earth. Of course, we can do away with familiar day patterns and seasons and so on, but such could be rather distracting to write about.

My idea is multiple rings of fire that encircle the world. The rings slowly spin relative to the surface, basically creating the effect of a line of light that sweeps from horizon to horizon, producing two "days" per complete revolution. Another slower rotation perpendicular to the spin would ensure that the land under the axis of the "daily" spinning wouldn't burn. Or is all this too drastic?

[Czernobog]

Hmm...I would like it to use a sun and a day/night cycle, especially given that I mentioned the sun in my Khem-Setesh article. But I have another cool idea...the underworld.

Basically, there would be a massive system of caves, tunnelling under the whole world, linking the Scour and the surface. There would also be massive caverns in which entire civilisations thrive, sort of like the Forgotten Realms Underdark. Where the Scour's gravity and the surface's gravity interact, about midway - it would be very weird and Escher-esque. Also, there would be all sorts of life-forms adapted to the darkness - or there could be tons of phosphorescence and/or bioluminescence down there. And there would be organisms made of living stone and metal - all very bizarre.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Double-posting kata!

My idea is multiple rings of fire that encircle the world. The rings slowly spin relative to the surface, basically creating the effect of a line of light that sweeps from horizon to horizon, producing two "days" per complete revolution. Another slower rotation perpendicular to the spin would ensure that the land under the axis of the "daily" spinning wouldn't burn. Or is all this too drastic?

My original idea was to supplement the sun with small artificial suns or mirrors, but that doesn't take care of the length of day, which is a problem, I believe Jupiter has a rotational period of about 11 Earth days.

Your idea is interesting, though very bizzarre. They do have the advantage of having a day/night cycle as long as you want and producing seasons. I have to ask though, how do they avoid crashing into each other? If the rings are a significant distance from one another you would end up with a cycle of something like: bright day-1, night-1, slightly dimmer day-1, night-2, bright day-2, night-3, somewhat dimmer-day 1, twilight-1, bright day-2. And that's just with three rings.

I'd suggest having a series of small artificial suns, all of which are luminous crystal moons set up there by the world spirit for some reason, maybe to keep an eye on the Malignancies, but that has the disadvantage of having to work out the orbits of all the little bastards.

I have a corolary to your idea though: In Genesis, God sets a flaming sword that whirls round and round at the gates of Eden. Now maybe the ring of fire is something like that. Though the question then becomes what is it trying to keep out, or in?

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Well, I'm not sure what Malignancy actually is. What do you have in mind?

As far as I know a Malignancy is basically a cancer that is growing, and therefore threatens you. Thinking about it if we're working from real world cancers then my suggestion doesn't make that much sense, a malignancy would just be a part of the world that doesn't recognise its own limits (as cancerous cells don't know to stop dividing). My thinking about the world spirit and the things living on it is that the stone kind of seeps into plants and influences their growth, its influence over animals would probably not be nearly enough to control them in that way, not directly. Any living stone influence over animals would probably be in the sense of general mood, so those growing on a Malignancy might pick up something of its need to expand and consume more resources, possibly making them more agressive. They might also develope an unusually strong sense of love for their homeland, which would lead to them trying to replicate it wherever they went.

Genius Loci that developed on the Malignancy would probably be far more nakedly agressive, and a bit closer to knowing its real nature.

Basically, there would be a massive system of caves, tunnelling under the whole world, linking the Scour and the surface. There would also be massive caverns in which entire civilisations thrive, sort of like the Forgotten Realms Underdark. Where the Scour's gravity and the surface's gravity interact, about midway - it would be very weird and Escher-esque. Also, there would be all sorts of life-forms adapted to the darkness - or there could be tons of phosphorescence and/or bioluminescence down there. And there would be organisms made of living stone and metal - all very bizarre.

Certainly makes sense if the world shell has enough weaknesses to result in the Stormlands and such things. Though I would imagine that the centre would tend toward being a zero gravity cavern instead of an escherscape. Still, depends on the elevation of the surface and scour near to the area.

I propose a name for this place: The Chthonosphere

[Invictus]

Your idea is interesting, though very bizzarre. They do have the advantage of having a day/night cycle as long as you want and producing seasons. I have to ask though, how do they avoid crashing into each other? If the rings are a significant distance from one another you would end up with a cycle of something like: bright day-1, night-1, slightly dimmer day-1, night-2, bright day-2, night-3, somewhat dimmer-day 1, twilight-1, bright day-2. And that's just with three rings.

As I said in MSN earlier, a two-ring setup is not too complicated. The actual "sun" is the spot where the two rings intersect in their spinning cycles, rising and falling diagonally in comparison to the rotational axes of the rings. Each ring is not as bright as the sun would be, but still visible. Only the "sun" is too bright to look at (except at the point where the two rings overlap, lighting up the entire sky). One further problem I detected with this arrangement is that there will be no real night - the moment one side of a ring moves below the horizon is when the other side of the ring emerges from the other horizon.

Maybe we're better off just having a regular sun.

I have a corolary to your idea though: In Genesis, God sets a flaming sword that whirls round and round at the gates of Eden. Now maybe the ring of fire is something like that. Though the question then becomes what is it trying to keep out, or in?

I do wonder...

As far as I know a Malignancy is basically a cancer that is growing, and therefore threatens you. Thinking about it if we're working from real world cancers then my suggestion doesn't make that much sense, a malignancy would just be a part of the world that doesn't recognise its own limits (as cancerous cells don't know to stop dividing). My thinking about the world spirit and the things living on it is that the stone kind of seeps into plants and influences their growth, its influence over animals would probably not be nearly enough to control them in that way, not directly. Any living stone influence over animals would probably be in the sense of general mood, so those growing on a Malignancy might pick up something of its need to expand and consume more resources, possibly making them more agressive. They might also develope an unusually strong sense of love for their homeland, which would lead to them trying to replicate it wherever they went.

In other words, rampant expansion and consumption on the basic level, probably filtered into aggressive behavior and twisted magic when it "infects" more complex organisms. You realize that there would be a lot of leeway in determining malignancy, which is an excellent thing. People would shun (SHUNNN...) everything in a volcanic area even no genuine malignancy has infected its inhabitants, while malignant creatures can range far and away from where they caught it and can in fact act as mobile vectors for the malignancy.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Maybe we're better off just having a regular sun.

Possibly, though I'm kind of enamoured with the idea of flaming celestial circles now.
Maybe if both rings were very dim but the inner ring functioned as an exponential magnifier for the outer?
Or just go for the simple option and have one artificial sun suspended on one ring.

In other words, rampant expansion and consumption on the basic level, probably filtered into aggressive behavior and twisted magic when it "infects" more complex organisms. You realize that there would be a lot of leeway in determining malignancy, which is an excellent thing.

Quite, I originally thought the malignancies would be some kind of ominous obsidian things centred around a nucleus of black crystal or some such, but then I realised that if the living stone as a whole resembles most sorts of normal stone then there is really no reason for this, and before it's realised a malignancy would probably be unnoticeable save to geologists (who probably don't exist in this place).

People would shun (SHUNNN...) everything in a volcanic area even no genuine malignancy has infected its inhabitants, while malignant creatures can range far and away from where they caught it and can in fact act as mobile vectors for the malignancy.

Yes indeed, these things would constantly be a problem if little pockets can start springing up even once an area has been cordoned off. This also brings up the question of how the nature of the malignancy and the living stone in general is transferred. What we've got so far indicates that it's transferred at least by minerals and possibly by water and some more esoteric methods, but when a malignant animal dies far away we have to wonder whether its malignance would only infect the topsoil and other living things (through the minerals) or seep into the deeper Earth and get into the living stone by some other (MAGIC) method.

There ought to be a method of dealing with this kind of sickness between ignoring it and blasting a continent into space. I'm thinking of some kind of 'immune cells'. Going on a mineral theme maybe something made out of glass with an artificial light source inside, incorporating focussing lenses into its body so it can incinerate malignant organisms (with lazors), and giant, sealed off rock things, miniature magma chambers, which could engulf malignant material and melt it down into harmlessness (if that's possible).

[Invictus]

Maybe if both rings were very dim but the inner ring functioned as an exponential magnifier for the outer?

One faint ring and one bright ring. I can live with that. Also, I think I can solve the nightless problem by having the dimmer ring spin more slowly than the primary, "daily" ring. In fact, if the dimmer ring completes only one revolution every year, the slowly altering trail of the sun (which is still where the two rings intersect) might be able to provide seasons. To top it off, the rings would only overlap once every year, marking each new year with a spectacular sight!

Yes indeed, these things would constantly be a problem if little pockets can start springing up even once an area has been cordoned off. This also brings up the question of how the nature of the malignancy and the living stone in general is transferred. What we've got so far indicates that it's transferred at least by minerals and possibly by water and some more esoteric methods, but when a malignant animal dies far away we have to wonder whether its malignance would only infect the topsoil and other living things (through the minerals) or seep into the deeper Earth and get into the living stone by some other (MAGIC) method.

I say go with magic. Something very general in the spirit of the world in a particular region goes wrong and the first signs are manifest in nature itself, progressing up the chain of things connected to or living off nature. So highly technological societies would be strongly insulated from the effect of malignancy, and may in fact able to exist in a malignant region without much threat. This also means that intelligence in itself doesn't determine resistance to malignancy: fossilized souls and genius loci are directly connected to the earth and would be pretty vulnerable.

As to the spread of malignancy by animal vectors: the concept makes sense but could be problematic if it means that malignancy is almost impossible to contain. Perhaps healthy earth has an inherent degree of resistance to it - a malignant bird pooping or dying here and there won't be enough to overcome this, while "natural" malignancies are the result of this resistance already being bypassed on a very deep level. Although, of course, the surrounding "healthy" earth resists the malignancy and prevents it from from spreading at will. This also means that malignancy *can* be artificially spread if enough effort is put into it. Cultists!

There ought to be a method of dealing with this kind of sickness between ignoring it and blasting a continent into space. I'm thinking of some kind of 'immune cells'. Going on a mineral theme maybe something made out of glass with an artificial light source inside, incorporating focussing lenses into its body so it can incinerate malignant organisms (with lazors), and giant, sealed off rock things, miniature magma chambers, which could engulf malignant material and melt it down into harmlessness (if that's possible).

This is sensible. Both lava men spawned from the Shell and crystal men falling from the shepherd moons can serve as the world's less drastic defense mechanisms. Of course, these systems also have the possibility of going malignant, either targeting "healthy" civilizations for elimination or simply becoming rampant themselves. How would these creatures detect malignancy, though? It's not like fantasy races need to catch planet-cancer to turn into all-conquering assholes. I like the idea that the term "malignancy" is a universal concept of taboo and unholiness in this world, incorporated into religion and society in ways which have nothing to do with planet-cancer.

All this said, would there be different types of malignancy that spread or behave differently? Having a universal force of negativity is very fantasy, but it also seems suspiciously convenient.

EDIT: On countering Malignancy, I'd say that melting it in magma is usually sufficient. In this case I probably overstated the rarity of lava to surface-dwellers - the world would deal with large-scale Malignancies by growing lavamen-spewing volcanoes around it, which is between "sending Ramiel" and "ejecting the continent into space" (the latter happening very rarely) on the scale in severity. Of course, this sucks for the people who happen to be enjoying the bumper harvests resulting from the rampant fecundity. Malignancy-infected flora and fauna can be similarly dealt with by burning.

[speaker-to-trolls]

One faint ring and one bright ring. I can live with that. Also, I think I can solve the nightless problem by having the dimmer ring spin more slowly than the primary, "daily" ring. In fact, if the dimmer ring completes only one revolution every year, the slowly altering trail of the sun (which is still where the two rings intersect) might be able to provide seasons. To top it off, the rings would only overlap once every year, marking each new year with a spectacular sight!

Nice!, although, wouldn't you still have the night problem since there would be two intersections, one on either side of the planet?

As to the spread of malignancy by animal vectors: the concept makes sense but could be problematic if it means that malignancy is almost impossible to contain. Perhaps healthy earth has an inherent degree of resistance to it - a malignant bird pooping or dying here and there won't be enough to overcome this, while "natural" malignancies are the result of this resistance already being bypassed on a very deep level. Although, of course, the surrounding "healthy" earth resists the malignancy and prevents it from from spreading at will. This also means that malignancy *can* be artificially spread if enough effort is put into it. Cultists!

That seems reasonable, the idea that land could just be infected anywhere by animals dying does make the world a bit too vulnerable. But most small scale malignancies should just be overwhelmed by the nature of the surrounding ground. Though I can imagine if a big malignant organism, or a lot of smaller ones die in one place then they might end up with an area of dead land around them to contain the nastyness until they can be swallowed up by a small volcano (so by big I mean really big, on the scale of a very large tree or a very very large whale or sauropod).
It would look like the elephants graveyard in The Lion King, spontaneous lava and mutant hyenas and all!
And cultists.

How would these creatures detect malignancy, though? It's not like fantasy races need to catch planet-cancer to turn into all-conquering assholes. I like the idea that the term "malignancy" is a universal concept of taboo and unholiness in this world, incorporated into religion and society in ways which have nothing to do with planet-cancer.

That's a good point, since obviously animals won't have convenient antigens. And there's a severe danger that one of these immunities could get it into its head to start burning everything that grows too quickly. A possibility is that it has some kind of small, mosquito like subunits that go around taking tissue samples (by biting) and taking them back to the master units, who then analyse them with (MAGIC) for the presence of malignancy, if they find too much in one particular area from one particular type of creature they go in and start burning those creatures. You'd see these little flying crystal things (maybe looking like the little jellyfish from Avatar) as an omen of terrible divine retribution, and as a cue to either move on or seek to welcome the angelic visitors somehow.

Here's an eerie thought; what if they can also detect the presence of malignant material in airborne particles, and if there's more than a certain amount will assume that another immunity has got there first, but a certain amount less than that and they will assume it's just from incidental burning or just odour. Burning witches could work to placate the angels, or it could bring them down on your head!

Or if they're intelligent enough they might go down and ask people about it, though humans might not be very helpful.

Oh, just so we're all on the same page as far as cosmology goes, I has a picture.

1=The void, where moons and the cursed malignant continents are.
2=The air, home to clouds and birds and other such unimportant things.
3=The Earth/the Shell/the Chthonosphere, made of living rock, with the surface on one side and the Scour on the other and some kind of underworld in the middle.
4=The Gas Giant Atmosphere (or whatever we're calling it, the Abyss? The Undersky?), forms the sky of the Scour and the underworlds.
5=The Deep, at the bottom of which is the Core, on which the underworlds float and from which come new continents to heal the Shell.

[Invictus]

Nice!, although, wouldn't you still have the night problem since there would be two intersections, one on either side of the planet?

D'oh! You're right, it doesn't solve the problem at all. You know what, let's have a sun. Suns are too important to be left out of a fantasy setting, and needs to be more than a coincidental astronomical phenomenon. The normal intersection of the Bright Ring and the Dim Band no longer produces that effect: but on one side, a sphere of purest, incandescent crystal hovers at the point of intersection. That is the Sun. Scholars are not sure if it merely focuses the light or in fact generates the rings. On the opposite intersection, maybe there can be something else that blots out the light of both rings...

Under this newest arrangement, there would be seasons as the Dim Band slowly rotates to shift the daily orbit of the Sun, but unlike Earth there will be no climate variations (except at the two major and two minor hot poles) since the "equator" covers every part of the world once per year. I can change this by giving the Dim Band a slight wobble instead of a complete rotation (effectively recreating Earth's orbit except geocentrically), but that means the New Year Convergence stops happening and I don't want to lose that. What do. Resort to mythology?

You'd see these little flying crystal things (maybe looking like the little jellyfish from Avatar) as an omen of terrible divine retribution, and as a cue to either move on or seek to welcome the angelic visitors somehow.

Here's an eerie thought; what if they can also detect the presence of malignant material in airborne particles, and if there's more than a certain amount will assume that another immunity has got there first, but a certain amount less than that and they will assume it's just from incidental burning or just odour. Burning witches could work to placate the angels, or it could bring them down on your head!

I like this setup, although it seems a bit too literal and...definite. The crystals might use more spiritual methods (such as interrogating/running diagnostics on the local spirits) as well. Also, actual angelic intervention of burning malignancies makes it too easy, though they may not be able to tell whether the non-burned party is malignant or not. And of course, nothing may show up at all since our crystal defenders can't be everywhere. It is an absolutely enormous world.

This should also lead to the widespread belief that crystals in general help ward off malignancy. It helps that sometimes, your gemstone was a cut-up crystal scout that retained its ability to detect malignancy.

(cross-section snipped)
1=The void, where moons and the cursed malignant continents are.
2=The air, home to clouds and birds and other such unimportant things.
3=The Earth/the Shell/the Chthonosphere, made of living rock, with the surface on one side and the Scour on the other and some kind of underworld in the middle.
4=The Gas Giant Atmosphere (or whatever we're calling it, the Abyss? The Undersky?), forms the sky of the Scour and the underworlds.
5=The Deep, at the bottom of which is the Core, on which the underworlds float and from which come new continents to heal the Shell.

No objections, especially with naming those mutant planetoids "Underworlds" because that is well, exactly what they are. The Rings would be above the moons and exiled continents (which would eventually grow planet-shaped, just like the Underworlds). The outermost atmosphere, with its paltry thickness compared to the maelstrom below, truly does not deserve the appellation of "sky" (although the Shell-dwellers may disagree). The inner atmosphere can't be called anything but the Storm.

(Man, draining seas and tethered mini-suns and planet-sized icebergs and lightning bolts thousands of miles long!)

[speaker-to-trolls]

D'oh! You're right, it doesn't solve the problem at all. You know what, let's have a sun. Suns are too important to be left out of a fantasy setting, and needs to be more than a coincidental astronomical phenomenon. The normal intersection of the Bright Ring and the Dim Band no longer produces that effect: but on one side, a sphere of purest, incandescent crystal hovers at the point of intersection. That is the Sun. Scholars are not sure if it merely focuses the light or in fact generates the rings. On the opposite intersection, maybe there can be something else that blots out the light of both rings...

The Light-bringer and the Night-bringer, I like it.
On the issue of climate, if you want climatic regions of any real significance you could A) Augment the bands with extra, smaller lights, B) Say that the sun isn't as bright as it is on Earth and that temperature is largely determined by distance from the poles or C) have temperature determined by something in the living stone or convection currents in the Storm.

I like this setup, although it seems a bit too literal and...definite. The crystals might use more spiritual methods (such as interrogating/running diagnostics on the local spirits) as well. Also, actual angelic intervention of burning malignancies makes it too easy, though they may not be able to tell whether the non-burned party is malignant or not. And of course, nothing may show up at all since our crystal defenders can't be everywhere. It is an absolutely enormous world.

It is a bit overly literal, it doesn't help that it makes these immunities look a lot like some kind of celestial gestapo. I'm trying to think of a less direct method, the only way I can think of is encouraging local humans to burn malignancies themselves (or drop them in the ocean or something, just DON'T BURY THEM, for Gods sake), and that only works when and where there are humans to do the burning.

Perhaps there are 'holy sites' which have some nasty effect on malignant things, these could be like watchtowers for the immunities, calling in the big guns if they detect too many malignant beings or malignant beings that are too big and powerful. The holy sites might have lesser protectors around them, maybe just animals influenced to act a certain way, which should be enough to deter small scale carriers. Maybe water which runs through such areas is poisonous to animals and plants that grow too quickly.
Of course what a malignancy is is vague, so these measures would probably be effective on some and ineffective on others.
This would probably be more difficult with the crystal guardians, the lava men would be able to conduct sweeps much more easily through the spirit of the Earth, though I imagine they'd still have holy sites.

EDIT

All this said, would there be different types of malignancy that spread or behave differently? Having a universal force of negativity is very fantasy, but it also seems suspiciously convenient.

Seems sensible, though that opens up a whole field of possibilities, I'm sure some malignancies would be spread through the Earth, some through animals, some through plants, some through the air and the sea, and all kinds through different types of stone. To be honest most of my ideas make them seem more like viruses than cancers, though. Not that the two things are unconnected.
And that leads on to the idea that if you can have cancers within the world you could have invaders from outsiders.

[Czernobog]

The Princedom of Asaheim
Size: 50,944 square miles
Government:Absolute Monarchy
Other Names: Asaheim

It all began when Markgraf Tyras Valhallen of the Kingdom of Estinno, a vital player in the politics of the Confederation of Lohengramm, was accused of treason and the use of black magic, in what was likely a political bid by House Eisenstadt to take over his lands. But the King of Estinno was merciful, and merely exiled him from the Kingdom on pain of death. For Valhallen, his House and all its loyal servants, men-at-arms, Magisters (magic-wielders, as they are known in Lohengramm) and retainers following behind him, it might as well have been death.

His men marched far north of Estinno, to the very borders of Lohengramm, and the eternally storm-shrouded Asaheim Mountains. There, Valhallen declared, he would build a new empire, on the fertility of the mountain valleys and the mineral wealth of its mines. They marched north, further into the mountains, and began fighting off the Ice Giants that dwelled within, battling the beings of living ice and taking over the native mountain tribes though a cunning combination of brilliant diplomacy and brutal force.

But Valhallen had made a miscalculation. The mountain valleys were not as fertile as he had hoped, and the population was beginning to starve. He simply didn't have the workforce to begin building a civilisation, and the ferocity of the great storms was only increasing. He asked his Magisters for a solution, and they gave one: turn the lower classes into undead and then brutalise the spirits of the air and water until they relented. Valhallen was horrified by what he had to do, but ordered the Magisters to go about it as quickly as possible. And so it was begun. The spirits of the mountains were battered into submission and the workforce were turned into undead automatons with only animal intelligence, their souls going into whatever afterlife awaited them. Great building projects were begun, and the nobility feasted on the fruits of the mountain valleys.

Meanwhile, Lohengramm sent an army into the mountains of Asaheim, an attempt by the current Vazilius (derived from the Lucian word 'Basileus', meaning Emperor) to conquer this desolate frontier. What they found horrified them. The dead walked, and great fortifications of black iron mined from the mountain peaks had been built in the southern frontier. After three attempts to break through the Eisenbahn Pass, on the southern borders, the attempted conquest was swiftly abandoned.

As of the present day, Asaheim controls all of the Asaheim Mountains, from the river Acherus that is made of phosphorescent white-green fire in the north, to the Eisenbahn Pass in the south. It is ruled by the immortal (through magical means) Prince Tyras Valhallen, from Valhallen Citadel in the centre. The Citadel is the size of a small city aboveground, and below ground stretches for many miles. Valhallen is content to wait, for the eternal storm protects him. He has enslaved the great Ice Giants and the mighty Storm Dragons - his outer defences have so far successfully resisted all attempts to overcome them. The culture of Asaheim is very decadent and hedonistic, and the Prince appreciates the finer pleasures in life, but is still an effective politician and general.

[Invictus]

The Light-bringer and the Night-bringer, I like it.
On the issue of climate, if you want climatic regions of any real significance you could A) Augment the bands with extra, smaller lights, B) Say that the sun isn't as bright as it is on Earth and that temperature is largely determined by distance from the poles or C) have temperature determined by something in the living stone or convection currents in the Storm.

A combination of B) and C) sounds best, as a circumference can be drawn between the four axes. C) allows for some randomness in climate, just like in fantasy novels!

It is a bit overly literal, it doesn't help that it makes these immunities look a lot like some kind of celestial gestapo. I'm trying to think of a less direct method, the only way I can think of is encouraging local humans to burn malignancies themselves (or drop them in the ocean or something, just DON'T BURY THEM, for Gods sake), and that only works when and where there are humans to do the burning.

Perhaps there are 'holy sites' which have some nasty effect on malignant things, these could be like watchtowers for the immunities, calling in the big guns if they detect too many malignant beings or malignant beings that are too big and powerful. The holy sites might have lesser protectors around them, maybe just animals influenced to act a certain way, which should be enough to deter small scale carriers. Maybe water which runs through such areas is poisonous to animals and plants that grow too quickly.

I think it's better to keep the anti-Malignancy schticks of the moons and the earth separate. The latter relies on slow but spontaneous manifestations of lava, but it could have 'holy sites' in the form of permanent volcanoes, rifts and monoliths where lesser stone-spirits are stationed and not to mention whatever external priesthoods they attract. The former have patrol zones limited by their orbits, and may all have different characteristics and modus operandi - which means that they would be ascribed with different personalities and worshiped as a pantheon of diverse gods, which would be accurate considering that each moon probably has its own spirit. They can drop crystals onto the Shell as much as they like, but their influence tends to be more transitory (the crystals degrade away from their moon?)

- Imagine one moon that abducts flora and fauna whole from the surface to test for malignancy. However, its testing process is so thorough that it not only completely renders the subject to its component molecules but records the information to the extent that it can make perfect crystal replicas of all the life it has brought up from the Shell. The surface of the moon is in fact populated by these replicas and the servitors it sends to the Shell are also shaped thus.
- Imagine another moon that chooses only from intelligent creatures to abduct and interrogates them lengthily but gently, setting them back down to where it abducted them perhaps years or decades later. Strangely unaged but touched in other ways, these abductees tend to start religions and orders to counter the spread of malignancy.
- And another moon that never returns its abductees, who continue to serve as archivists and watchers on the planetary body itself, responsible for cataloging its knowledge of the world below and perhaps even coming to exert a degree of influence on its decisions.

And response patterns can be diverse as well. Some moons might attempt to seek understanding with people its servitors come into contact with, and forms their servitors take can come to reflect that. Some might simply attempt to lazor everything from orbit or poison the waters and the landscape to suppress the symptoms, and would be rightly feared by the people who live under their orbits.

EDIT: TRAINS.

[speaker-to-trolls]

The former have patrol zones limited by their orbits, and may all have different characteristics and modus operandi - which means that they would be ascribed with different personalities and worshiped as a pantheon of diverse gods, which would be accurate considering that each moon probably has its own spirit. They can drop crystals onto the Shell as much as they like, but their influence tends to be more transitory (the crystals degrade away from their moon?)

That seems like a good idea, the crystals would be in an unfamiliar environment and wouldn't be able to regrow. Interesting range of ideas on the types of immune moon that might develope as well, there should probably be close to as many types of immunities as there are types of malignancies, though the moons would probably have the advantage of being able to work together when the situation called for it. I can also see them getting in each others way if they both go after the same problem.
Not that this would look like a police drama with two detectives with very different methods getting in each others way. Not that much, anyway.

I especially like the idea of the moon populated by immunity replicas of terrestrial animals, that's just eerie.

Man, the possibilities are endless, and this is just what happens when the world gets sick!

TRAINS

I see, could you elaborate?

EDIT: First a somewhat randomised idea occurs to me: What happens to malignant moons after they have been banished? I see 4 possibilities.
1)They circle the world forever, the ones which are strong enough to do so growing into hollow parodies of the world beneath them and roaming the heavens ominously (or not, since they aren't threatening the world directly they might be fine as long as bits of them don't come to Earth and try to germinate).
2)They fall back to the Shell, either retaining their malignancy and beginning the cycle again, or dead or much reduced so the Shell can re absorb them/drop them into the Deep.
3) They are shepherded slowly out to the orbit of the rings of the sun, which incinerate them.
4) They are shepherded out past the rings of the sun and into whatever is beyond, if indeed anything is beyond.
All four could happen, of course, though the last one starts begging the question of the wider cosmology, which on balance we should probably leave blank for a bit since we can do just fine with the things within the rings of the sun.

Second; after we've got the malignancies and immunities sorted out into a bit more detail we should have something about the systems the world has just to keep growing and maintaining itself. Nothing too detailed necessarily, just a few basic processes and the effects these might have on life. For instance, I think it could make sense for there to be a kind of ley line system, acting through certain kinds of mineral basically as a circulatory system (or whatever plants have, xylem and phloem) for the living stone, carrying the life force in stronger measure to certain parts than others. The life force would obviously suffuse the whole world, but it would be stronger in some places and these conduits would take it there without diffusion.
We ought to flesh out the different types of malignancy and immunity a bit first, though.

AH, every time I start thinking about this my head starts filling up with variations on one theme or another and completely distracts me from any actual work I have to do, not good.

[Invictus]

That seems like a good idea, the crystals would be in an unfamiliar environment and wouldn't be able to regrow. Interesting range of ideas on the types of immune moon that might develope as well, there should probably be close to as many types of immunities as there are types of malignancies, though the moons would probably have the advantage of being able to work together when the situation called for it. I can also see them getting in each others way if they both go after the same problem.
Not that this would look like a police drama with two detectives with very different methods getting in each others way. Not that much, anyway.

If by 'police drama' you mean 'heated religious debate' and by 'two police detectives' you mean 'two religious churches who identify themselves with the moons involved, with or without any instruction from their angels', yes.

Another reason the moons right limit their direct intervention is because they aren't exactly made of spare crystals up there. Although there must be something special in their makeup that allows them to stay sustain themselves without any direct contact with the shell, they cannot spare the resources to raise volcanoes or whatever like the World-spirit does.

I see, could you elaborate?

I just thought trains would be great for traversing enormous distances due to the size of the world. This is one of those settings where I don't mind some societies progressing to magitech and steampunk because even so, they can't hope to exert disproportionate influence over the whole world.

1)They circle the world forever, the ones which are strong enough to do so growing into hollow parodies of the world beneath them and roaming the heavens ominously (or not, since they aren't threatening the world directly they might be fine as long as bits of them don't come to Earth and try to germinate).
2)They fall back to the Shell, either retaining their malignancy and beginning the cycle again, or dead or much reduced so the Shell can re absorb them/drop them into the Deep.
3) They are shepherded slowly out to the orbit of the rings of the sun, which incinerate them.
4) They are shepherded out past the rings of the sun and into whatever is beyond, if indeed anything is beyond.

That looks about right. Just like the Underworlds, the cancerous continents will try to grow into the world all on their own and eventually assume the characteristic shape of Demon Moons, if they are not destroyed first. Then I imagine they get busy waging interlunar warfare against the Guardian Moons and occasionally drop emissaries in vile parody of the crystalline entities back to the Shell. I imagine the malignant vitality of these Demon Moons eventually burn out: they're not built to survive the void like the other Moons are. At that point they become dead rock that either drift on forever, or suffer fates 2-4.

Second; after we've got the malignancies and immunities sorted out into a bit more detail we should have something about the systems the world has just to keep growing and maintaining itself. Nothing too detailed necessarily, just a few basic processes and the effects these might have on life. For instance, I think it could make sense for there to be a kind of ley line system, acting through certain kinds of mineral basically as a circulatory system (or whatever plants have, xylem and phloem) for the living stone, carrying the life force in stronger measure to certain parts than others. The life force would obviously suffuse the whole world, but it would be stronger in some places and these conduits would take it there without diffusion.
We ought to flesh out the different types of malignancy and immunity a bit first, though.

True. Should there be different kinds of life force based on different physical elements? (I've been reading Exalted) Water or wood for example may carry life force in different ways, which cause distinct types of malignancies. And confluences of these types of energy can create different kinds of mana nodes holy sites, not just angry lavamen-spewing anti-malignancy outposts.

EDIT: By Jove, I think I've got it. If the Bright Ring is elliptical, wider at the axes and narrower at the 'equator', then the sun will always give more light to the equatorial tropic and less to the poles. Or if we want to keep the current 'hot poles', vice versa. Either way, this way there will be permanent climate differences over the world!

[speaker-to-trolls]

If by 'police drama' you mean 'heated religious debate' and by 'two police detectives' you mean 'two religious churches who identify themselves with the moons involved, with or without any instruction from their angels', yes.

Quite. Someone must tell the story of a scribe-saint sent down from one of the holy moons to bring the word that two warring religions are, actually, on the same side and ought to start working together before the gigantic planet-cancer and its armies of monsters eat them all!

I just thought trains would be great for traversing enormous distances due to the size of the world. This is one of those settings where I don't mind some societies progressing to magitech and steampunk because even so, they can't hope to exert disproportionate influence over the whole world.

Ah I see, yes, trains are nice.
And also yes, plenty of room for steampunk nonsense and super-magical societies or what have you. From the point of view of the narrative they'd be quite good if you wanted to connect two bits of the world which would never have any contact if everyone operated at an iron age-medieval technology level, just in terms of stray explorers and traders going around to all these places, not actually spreading their technology and enlightenment everywhere.

By Jove, I think I've got it. If the Bright Ring is elliptical, wider at the axes and narrower at the 'equator', then the sun will always give more light to the equatorial tropic and less to the poles. Or if we want to keep the current 'hot poles', vice versa. Either way, this way there will be permanent climate differences over the world!

Hmm, either one would work, we would either have 4 hot poles or 2 hot poles and 2 cold poles. I think 2 hot poles and 2 cold ones would be a bit more fantasy-y, fantasy usually has a central source for everything, even un-things like cold and darkness. But either way works in my opinion.

True. Should there be different kinds of life force based on different physical elements? (I've been reading Exalted) Water or wood for example may carry life force in different ways, which cause distinct types of malignancies. And confluences of these types of energy can create different kinds of mana nodes holy sites, not just angry lavamen-spewing anti-malignancy outposts.

That would make sense, though I have no idea how they'd differ and will have to hammer this out when I have more time on my hands (my posts to this at the moment have been snatched in between revision sessions). Having said that here is some quick thinking on the matter: I can see 5 types of matter carrying life force, stone, water, air, fire (or whatever the sun is made of, and possibly the crystal guardians) and flesh (meaning in this context all organic matter)
In actuality I'm only sure about stone though I think water and air should have some carrying capacity since the water and air on the surface are derived from (thin and pathetic mockeries of) the Deep and the Storm, which both have something to do with the creation and movement of the stone. Of the three I think Stone ends up being the most distinct, patches of stone are distinct, they can grow and can spread their life force out but there is a more definite cut off point between different areas, particularly if the areas contain different kinds of Stone. Water and Air I think would be much more fluid and the life force in them would be more apt to spread out, they are mainly (above the surface at least) carriers of life force rather than having it act upon them, though I think Water is probably more effected by it than Air by a long way.

Flesh would be a strange one, since I envision it being not just living beings but the soil and sediment they grow in as well. The soil would be the connecting point between Stone and Flesh, and a weird sort of grey area. I really have no idea how the Life Force would act on the ecosystem overall except in encouraging certain plants to grow, and that would mostly be under the direction of the Stone to some extent.

Fire (which I would actually prefer to call Sun Flesh or some kind of fantasy word for plasma. Ether? Flogiston?) I imagine might not actually be matter that carries life force so much as a form of life force without matter, or very close to it. As I said, like plasma. It would be very energetic and very destructive, but also, as seen from the structure of the rings, capable of direction. If we use anything like this then something along these lines could at least be the power source of the angels, locked inside and channeled by a particular type of stone.

EDIT: Oh, I got a bit carried away there.
Anyway, I'm aware I may be making this all a bit too definite and almost ecological, so just ignore if it's not in a fantasy spirit.

[Invictus]

And also yes, plenty of room for steampunk nonsense and super-magical societies or what have you. From the point of view of the narrative they'd be quite good if you wanted to connect two bits of the world which would never have any contact if everyone operated at an iron age-medieval technology level, just in terms of stray explorers and traders going around to all these places, not actually spreading their technology and enlightenment everywhere.

Yes, such societies would provide great 'perspectives' or normatives to write from. They would also be the only ones who could explore/settle the Scour or discover the existence of the Underworlds for the people of the Shell.

Hmm, either one would work, we would either have 4 hot poles or 2 hot poles and 2 cold poles. I think 2 hot poles and 2 cold ones would be a bit more fantasy-y, fantasy usually has a central source for everything, even un-things like cold and darkness. But either way works in my opinion.

Two cold poles and two hot poles it is!

Having said that here is some quick thinking on the matter: I can see 5 types of matter carrying life force, stone, water, air, fire (or whatever the sun is made of, and possibly the crystal guardians) and flesh (meaning in this context all organic matter)
In actuality I'm only sure about stone though I think water and air should have some carrying capacity since the water and air on the surface are derived from (thin and pathetic mockeries of) the Deep and the Storm, which both have something to do with the creation and movement of the stone. Of the three I think Stone ends up being the most distinct, patches of stone are distinct, they can grow and can spread their life force out but there is a more definite cut off point between different areas, particularly if the areas contain different kinds of Stone. Water and Air I think would be much more fluid and the life force in them would be more apt to spread out, they are mainly (above the surface at least) carriers of life force rather than having it act upon them, though I think Water is probably more effected by it than Air by a long way.

Flesh would be a strange one, since I envision it being not just living beings but the soil and sediment they grow in as well. The soil would be the connecting point between Stone and Flesh, and a weird sort of grey area. I really have no idea how the Life Force would act on the ecosystem overall except in encouraging certain plants to grow, and that would mostly be under the direction of the Stone to some extent.

Fire (which I would actually prefer to call Sun Flesh or some kind of fantasy word for plasma. Ether? Flogiston?) I imagine might not actually be matter that carries life force so much as a form of life force without matter, or very close to it. As I said, like plasma. It would be very energetic and very destructive, but also, as seen from the structure of the rings, capable of direction. If we use anything like this then something along these lines could at least be the power source of the angels, locked inside and channeled by a particular type of stone.

I don't have many ideas about this aspect yet, but I'm inclined to think of it in terms of spirits: Stone generates spirits that reflect its nature as the foundation of everything, and therefore is good at containing: which is how you can get your fossilized souls and genius loci and stuff, and any spirit can potentially subsist in Stone, no matter its origin. Water and Air conveys and have their own native spirits as well, (probably harnessed by mages for travel and communication) but they are likely less powerful since the Shell is the domain of Stone. Go into the Storm or the Deep and it is their respective elements that form the foundation. I'm not sure how Flesh enters into the equation, but fleshy things are probably special in that they are the most defined by their physical substance. Fire (Ether? Empyrean?) as the province of the Rings, can only be contained in physical form by crystal (which scholars hold to be an elemental combination of Fire and Stone?) or refracted in useful energy by passing through crystals like the Sun. Holy Moons can subsist on Fire because they are mostly crystal, while Demon Moons cannot. I'm not sure about the presence of Fire below the Shell - perhaps there should be, or the vast majority of the planet wouldn't have access to it. But then, this setting is undeniable surface-centric.

[Czernobog]

The Confederation of Lohengramm
Size: 208,826 sq mi
Government: Varies
Adjective Form: Lohengrammic
Also Called: Lohengramm, Lohengrammia

Territories


The Confederation of Lohengramm is made up of dozens of states, stretching from the Eisenbahn Pass to the Norden Mountains, with various forms of government and technology levels. The most notable are listed below.

Estinno

The Kingdom of Estinno, with a capital at Nornstadt, is the core of Lohengramm, and its king is also the Vazilius of Lohengramm. It is renowned for its artificiers and alchemists, who devise terrifying weapons that make cunning use of steam and clockwork, including Steam Cannons, the Skyfleet, Behemoths, and the dreaded Clockwork Soldiers. It is the most technologically-advanced nation of Lohengramm, and is proud of it. Estinno has been described by a Lucian diplomat as 'an army with a nation attached', such is the quality of its soldiers.

Valkyria

Valkyria lies in the shadow of the Valhallaberg, a great mountain two miles tall, looming over the city as a sheer spike of rock and ice. The Warrior-Priestesses of Valkyria, sworn to serve Thoren of the Thunder, one of Lohengramm's three prominent gods, are chosen by a climb to the very summit of the mountain, every slip and false step meaning certain death. When they reach the top, they must battle with those who also ascended until they submit to the victor. Out of the hundreds who choose to join the Priestesses of Valkyria every year, only a handful survive.

Valhallenstadt

Valhallenstadt is named for Tyras Valhallen of the Princedom of Asaheim, in a mocking gesture toward the Prince of Asaheim. However, the city suffers unusually bad luck, and has been razed no less than three times by enemy armies in just the past ten years. The gods do not seem to have put their blessing upon this city, no matter how much the city prays. It lies close to the Eisenbahn Pass, and thus to the mountains of Asaheim.

The Southlands

The Southlands are a bounteous area, with a climate good for farming and several major rivers, and is thus Lohengramm's breadbasket. However, they are close to its rival Lucia, with only the Norden Mountains between them and the enemy, and would be first to fall if a major war ever came, something which seems likely with the recent tensions.

The Coast of Swords

The Coast of Swords is only tenuously ruled by Lohengramm, with a bare few outposts between it and the sea. The seas there are rife with hazards, rocks and storms, with savage cyclones occasionally striking the warmer, more placid portions. It's ruled almost entirely by pirates, barbarian tribes, and bandits, with a bit of vagueness between all three categories.


Religion and Culture

Lohengramm's religion is primarily based on the worship of three gods - Thoren of the Thunder, Odnir of the Frost and Tyram the One-Handed. All three are warrior gods, personifications of the harsh and dangerous Lohengrammic landscape, and its perils. Yet they are also beacons of hope, with their three symbols - Thoren's Spear, Odnir's Hammer, and Tyram's Sword - commonly used as adornments, particularly on the priesthood and the warriors/soldiers of Lohengramm. The priests of Lohengramm are more warriors than scholars, battling its enemies - Malignancy, treason and outside enemies - with as much zeal as there is in their preaching.

Lohengramm's culture is reflective of its harsh and cold climate, and is more martial than not. They are not like the lands of Lucia and Khem-Setesh, which can afford to be decadent - they are tempered like steel by the harsh winters and cool summers, and while not barbaric (even in the more primitive regions) are usually grim.

Military

The military of Lohengramm is made up of dozens of armies using different equipment, making co-ordinated campaigns a logistical nightmare. There are two people capable of mobilising Lohengramm's full military might - the Master of the Estates, and the Vazilius of Lohengramm. Both have absolute authority over military affairs, the Vazilius' word overriding all others, including his own Master of the Estates and the various lords, princes, kings and other rulers of Lohengramm. All of Lohengramm's semi-independent nations have their own militaries, and most of its nobility have their own private armies, although these private armies are far inferior to Lohengramm's own, and are commonly used to crush bandits.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Water and Air conveys and have their own native spirits as well, (probably harnessed by mages for travel and communication) but they are likely less powerful since the Shell is the domain of Stone. Go into the Storm or the Deep and it is their respective elements that form the foundation.

About what I had thought, the thought also occurs to me that Air and Water spirits could be a bit like RNA viruses, in that they would encode themselves into the main substance (Stone) and transcribe themselves onto their native substrate (Air or Water) when they wanted to do X. This would mean it would actually make sense for wind spirits to be spirits 'of' the mountain, while ocean/river spirits might be spirits 'of' the ground or nearby stones.
There would also be some pure aerial/aquatic spirits, but these would tend to be much less durable and coherent than Stone or Flesh spirits. In the Deep and the Storm the patterns are big and enduring enough to sustain them, and they can comfortably move about and spread into weird and wondrous shapes of existence, but here the Air and Water are too thin. I can see there being some large, vague, pure Air/Water spirits in large currents, seas, maybe cloud formations, but these would have far less personality than other spirits, and even the most stable at the bottom of the ocean would be more changeable than the Earth spirits.
However, there should be some difference between Water and Air, just not sure what it would be yet.

I'm not sure how Flesh enters into the equation, but fleshy things are probably special in that they are the most defined by their physical substance.

Flesh needs work, it'll be confusing if we use it.
Incidentally I had an idea about what people on this world might philosophise: There is a world of water, a world of air, a world of stone and a world of fire all in ascending order. What is beneath all that? Well, logically, it must be a world of Flesh! That is what lies at the centre of the universe, the gigantic pulsating brain of God!
I imagine a saintly scribe telling this to an angel, who gives the ethereal equivalent of a soft chuckle and says "what interesting philosophies you conceive"

Fire (Ether? Empyrean?) as the province of the Rings, can only be contained in physical form by crystal (which scholars hold to be an elemental combination of Fire and Stone?) or refracted in useful energy by passing through crystals like the Sun. Holy Moons can subsist on Fire because they are mostly crystal, while Demon Moons cannot. I'm not sure about the presence of Fire below the Shell - perhaps there should be, or the vast majority of the planet wouldn't have access to it. But then, this setting is undeniable surface-centric.

Well we have the tethered suns over the Scour (maybe) so there is some mechanism for either generating or containing Fire somewhere in the Earth or Storm. Maybe it's generated in the Storm by lightning and the Earth by some other process and channeled into crystals deliberately, maybe the other forces can create small amounts of Fire and harness it if they create special substances like crystals.

[Invictus]

About what I had thought, the thought also occurs to me that Air and Water spirits could be a bit like RNA viruses, in that they would encode themselves into the main substance (Stone) and transcribe themselves onto their native substrate (Air or Water) when they wanted to do X. This would mean it would actually make sense for wind spirits to be spirits 'of' the mountain, while ocean/river spirits might be spirits 'of' the ground or nearby stones.
There would also be some pure aerial/aquatic spirits, but these would tend to be much less durable and coherent than Stone or Flesh spirits. In the Deep and the Storm the patterns are big and enduring enough to sustain them, and they can comfortably move about and spread into weird and wondrous shapes of existence, but here the Air and Water are too thin. I can see there being some large, vague, pure Air/Water spirits in large currents, seas, maybe cloud formations, but these would have far less personality than other spirits, and even the most stable at the bottom of the ocean would be more changeable than the Earth spirits.
However, there should be some difference between Water and Air, just not sure what it would be yet.

I generally agree. Air and Water spirits on the Shell would be a bit out of their element and they would know it, but their living requirements would still be low compared to humans - they just need a bit of their native substance to stay active in, and some marvelously accommodating Stone to anchor themselves to. This is probably the same with Earth spirits outside the shell, especially those of the Underworlds. Physical creatures, on the other hand, generally won't survive without the right kinds of air, water, food and so on, but I imagine there's a relatively common type of magic that allows creatures from one sphere to waive their living requirements when immersed in another sphere. This is how the saintly scribes can subsist without amenity on the crystal moons, or the flying (or swimming) behemoths of the inner world can survive coming up through the Stormlands.

Flesh needs work, it'll be confusing if we use it.
Incidentally I had an idea about what people on this world might philosophise: There is a world of water, a world of air, a world of stone and a world of fire all in ascending order. What is beneath all that? Well, logically, it must be a world of Flesh! That is what lies at the centre of the universe, the gigantic pulsating brain of God!
I imagine a saintly scribe telling this to an angel, who gives the ethereal equivalent of a soft chuckle and says "what interesting philosophies you conceive"

Personally, I'd just say that are all living things from the Shell are Stone-aspected. Also >implying that the beings furthest away from the Core have any better idea of what lies in there

Well we have the tethered suns over the Scour (maybe) so there is some mechanism for either generating or containing Fire somewhere in the Earth or Storm. Maybe it's generated in the Storm by lightning and the Earth by some other process and channeled into crystals deliberately, maybe the other forces can create small amounts of Fire and harness it if they create special substances like crystals.

I actually thought some ancient civilization tried to colonize the Scour and left those tethered suns there, but a more natural solution is probably needed, yes.

EDIT: For the Shell (which will probably be the focus of the worldbuilding), will there be any particularly large-scale or regular terrain features that need mentioning?

[speaker-to-trolls]

EDIT: For the Shell (which will probably be the focus of the worldbuilding), will there be any particularly large-scale or regular terrain features that need mentioning?

OK, as I mentioned on MSN big ventilation towers running from the surface to the scour would probably be there, I can also imagine there being huge underground cave systems filled with water or air as part of a similar system, as well as maybe seams of crystals or metals acting as a kind of nervous system. Also could be long lines of magma for this kind of purpose.
I also have the idea of areas where the fossilised souls of animals and plants have a particularly strong influence on the land, such that they try to regrow their old forms out of the rock. So there might be forests of stone trees and rocks that look like bears heads because there is a bear entombed in the mountain trying to grow its head back.

There's also infrequent malignancies and malignancy containment mountains/volcanoes. Also, following our last MSN talk I think large areas of dead land would make sense, either on the top of mountains or on plains where the dust from those mountains has blown, as you suggested, in fact.

I have had a few other ideas about dead earth though; First of all areas of dead land could have a kind of anti spirit to them, they don't spread except through other areas getting worn out or accidentally starved, and powers 'living' within the land would be a kind of ghostly not-quite-spirit, the weird, crystalised, crumbling remnants of earlier beings. They might be dangerous to be around but they would not be aggressive. The dangerous thing could be if a living spirit becomes too affected by dead land, it could end up altered.
Dead lands would probably be seen as a negative force like malignancies, but they would in fact be anti malignancies, and malignant spirits would hate and dread them even more than any normal spirits. A normal spirit might accept that it will die as part of the order of the world, but a malignancy just wants to keep living and growing for ever.

Imagine if some malignancies actually wear out the land they infect, creating dead land, and you have the rather sad image of a horde of darkness in fact made up of terrified creatures constantly fleeing from the cold and silence they make out of an area simply by being there.

This also brings me to my idea about the role of flesh in the magic system. You said earlier that each element would have its own particular property, at least on the Shell. So I thought; Earth preserves, fire/light/ether radiates, Air and Water convey (and water engulfs and nurtures), and flesh renews. Biological life would be the most needy kind of life around, but also the most versatile and enduring, able to restore vigour to a dying landscape if the conditions were right for it and to reinvigorate itself indefinitely.
Landscapes would still die because life cannot exist in sufficient quantities everywhere, places like the tops of mountains would be the least hospitable to flesh, and thus the earth spirits would eventually wear themselves out growing up that high and be unable to renew themselves.

Last thing, a note about the Scour. Since our last MSN chat you mentioned you thought the new bits of land coming up from the Deep would meld into the Scour rather than plug up holes then the geography of the Scour would als be reversed compared to the Surface. On the surface the earth would grow upwards to form mountains, on the Scour new continents would collide with the 'ground' to form elevated plateaus that would slowly recede into the ground.

[Invictus]

I also have the idea of areas where the fossilised souls of animals and plants have a particularly strong influence on the land, such that they try to regrow their old forms out of the rock. So there might be forests of stone trees and rocks that look like bears heads because there is a bear entombed in the mountain trying to grow its head back.

That's brilliantly evocative, so I agree with this wholeheartedly.

They might be dangerous to be around but they would not be aggressive. The dangerous thing could be if a living spirit becomes too affected by dead land, it could end up altered.

I'm not sure if it's necessary to give these Deadlands infectious qualities. The natural whispers of the dwindling and disintegrating spirits in the dust should be enough to drive other spirits to distraction and perhaps living things to madness. (And it's not like we don't hear RL stories of people going mad trying to cross deserts. Inhospitable landscapes have naturally detrimental effects on the human psyche) So yes, people and spirits are naturally afraid of these Deadlands and avoid them, doubly so for particular types of malignance.

This also brings me to my idea about the role of flesh in the magic system. You said earlier that each element would have its own particular property, at least on the Shell. So I thought; Earth preserves, fire/light/ether radiates, Air and Water convey (and water engulfs and nurtures), and flesh renews. Biological life would be the most needy kind of life around, but also the most versatile and enduring, able to restore vigour to a dying landscape if the conditions were right for it and to reinvigorate itself indefinitely.

In other words, you are saying that the presence of fleshy beings is necessary for maintaining the actual animism of the world? There's a bit of me that thinks this is strangely brilliant, but I'm not sure if this results in the kind of world we want. It would deny the conceptual space for all kinds of alien creatures in places not necessarily habitable to people(e.g. the Scour). It also denies the premise that the world itself is alive as well, with geological processes independent of 'human' influence.

Last thing, a note about the Scour. Since our last MSN chat you mentioned you thought the new bits of land coming up from the Deep would meld into the Scour rather than plug up holes then the geography of the Scour would als be reversed compared to the Surface. On the surface the earth would grow upwards to form mountains, on the Scour new continents would collide with the 'ground' to form elevated plateaus that would slowly recede into the ground.

Sometimes it would plug up holes, if the fresh continent arrives behind schedule. But yes, it sucks for people living on the Scour, but them's the breaks.

I did some calculations earlier about a supremundane shell covering Jupiter. The radius of such a shell would be about 1.6 times the radius of Jupiter itself, so there would be a lot of empty space between the gas giant's atmosphere and the inner surface. Do you think there should be a similar kind of gap betwene the Scour and the Storm as well? A relatively calm layer (but still pretty windy, compared to the atmosphere of the Shell) called the Gulf which (generally) insulates the inner surface from the madness of the Storm and creates a zone for the relatively habitable Underworlds to orbit. Of course, the Storm would frequently spill over and strike the Scour directly, or else we wouldn't have Stormlands and such.