The Solidarity Wars reboot

[Artemis]

Might be jumping the gun a little here, but I've been doing a bit of art for one of my polities, the Federation of Concord, and thought I'd share with you guys. All the data fluff is, of course, likely to change.

[Heretic]

Dude, how the heck do you make your own flag? it seems so...complex to be a MS Paint.

[Artemis]

Adobe Illustrator, my friend. Vector drawing, low memory usage, compatible with Photoshop...it's my design program of choice.

[Destructionator]

And I just saw this thread and read through it quickly. I was also watching television in the background so forgive me if I say something that was already addressed. Some quick notes:

Space fighters: I have two options here:
a) Space fighters are not what you think. They are instead rather large ships just automated so much that they are a one or two man rig. I think it was SeigeTank who brought this up several pages ago.

b) Space fighters are made possible through a little magic. Some kind of cloaking device is possible, but only works on little ships and is extremely expensive (so you don't want to put it on disposable missiles). The fighters can launch at a huge range and close under cloak somewhat slowly on a big ship. Eventually, when they get close enough, the ship will detect them anyway, but by then, the fighter is close enough to open up and pwn it before the big ships realize what's going on.

This might lead to Star Wars like battles with a little handwave. Or it might fail and you die quickly.


In short, space fighters are extremely risky hit them before they see you things.

and of course c) both of the above.



Artificial gravity: LAME. Who needs it?


Shields: they are cool. I'm for minimizing them, but not eliminating them.


Translations: I'd imagine AIs would be pretty good at it (one of the tiny background facts about the ase-verse is AI translations are somewhat common, meaning the whole internet is available in virtually all languages). I like the handheld thing being workable but not awesome though, especially with the cultural part of the translation failing.

(It translates, but doesn't localize, if you know what I mean.)


Lasers: they are viable. The waste heat is big, but you are making the mistake I made with coil guns once: I said a coilgun wouldn't be awesome due to equal but opposite reactions.

But an important fact being missed is the gun has the force spread out over its length. The target has it all in one little place. The former is much easier to deal with.

Same thing with laser heat. The heat on the target is all in one little place all at once, probably trying to hit a specific sensitive place. On the firing ship, it is spread out over a big place that can handle it.



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I'd like to see worlds with multiple countries. In my setting, Earth has several countries on it that don't always agree. Combat wise this means there is still ground, naval, air, battles without necessarily having space matter at all. I like this.

A planet is a big place. There might be colonies on the same one from multiple species too.


Ummm, I had more to say but forgot it. My wrist is hurting anyway, so I'll leave it here for now.

[Mobius 1]

I'm going to throw out the name of my group whose article I'm writing up this weekend: the Cevaucian Shipcrafting Conglomerate.


If only for dibs.

[Malchus]

I think the issue of language is an important one, and basically agree with previous suggestions with the caveat (though I'm sure it's crossed peoples minds) that a lot of specialist translators would probably have implants or brain enhancements so they'd be more responsive to the nuances of one species or another. I'm not sure what was meant by the idea of culture translating machinery, would that be some sort of machine that checks against a database and extrapolates from known data what an alien might be referencing or what some gesture or another might mean?

Well, not so much culture translating machinery. The more advanced translation devices I conceived as having LAD (Language Acquisition Device) ability when "learning" a new language into its database. This often involves two machines (likely from different species they haven't talked to before) teaching the other the language (or languages) they know. Think of as an English teacher trying to teach a Swahili teacher English, while at the same time the latter tries to teach the former Swahili. The initial changes would be simple and rudimentary before moving up to more complex forms. Of course, since language is an expression of the culture of the speakers, there will be eventually some exchange of cultural context (but not quite as effective as that of living interpreters). Plus, since these are computers, the acquisition and exchange of languages happens at a far more accelerated rate.

[Blackwing]

I've personally never put much stock in the idea of 'universal translators'.

There's way too many variable to sort out. First you have to find the frequency at which the opposite party's universal translator is trying to contact you, if they're even using the same spectrum. Then you have to have compatible computer protocols for the machines to interface. If they're not using the same type of computer (if one side is using a binary system, but the other has long since moved onto 'holographic' trinary coding then you're already out of luck. Trinary coding isn't that strange for communication. Morse Code is trinary, for instance).

Moreover if one of the species prefers to teach the opposite party simple greetings first ('hello') while the other party prefers to teach concepts that are important to them ('Faith', 'Home', 'Truth'), you get huge miscommunication.

For instance humans might transmit a greeting and their own name for themselves 'Hello. Human.' whereas (using LD races for a sec) the Hemiola will first inform the opposite party where they're from 'Home. Soll'Fa (insert x/y/z coordinates here).', then one species will assume it's learning the other's greeting, while the other assumes it's learning the first's home location.

Moreover, there might even be gross inconsistencies in very similar messages, with Humans greeting with 'Home, Earth, x/y/z' and the Hemiola greeting with 'Home, z/x/y, Soll'fa'.

Essentially the only way to REALLY learn a new language that you have never, ever encountered before is to sit with a native speaker and point out things while saying their names. After that you move to grammar and syntax and context and finally you move into the abstracts.

An AI, no matter how sophisticated, can never do this better than a sentient being, though a Digital Intelligence (a sentient computer) could do it more efficiëntly and faster if paired up with a Digital Intelligence of the opposite party, provided they can point at things to say their names.

[Invictus]

I propose that translation technology become one of those things which have been floating around since the days of some of the really ancient species, and has been perfected by millennia of use. Also, here is the basic profile for the Dylmyri species:

Dylmyri Version 2

Physiology
Dylmyri are radially symmetric amphibious creatures whose basic biochemistry, like that of Terran life, depend on oxygen and water. Their central torsos are on average 1.3m high (including the “head”), but with tentacles straightened can reach a total body length of over 2 meters. Their appearance is similar to jellyfish on first glance, but their interiors are far more complex and robust. A Dylmyri skeleton only extends as far as the torso, forming a central spinal column with radial “struts” that protect organs from impact and an anterior umbrella-like structure that shields the brain and gives shape to their distinctive mantle. Dylmyri limbs are tentacles made of pure nerve and muscle and are highly flexible. Their skin is tough and rubbery and naturally secretes a mucus which streamlines them under water and protects their bodies from irritation when on land.

Dylmyri have trilateral symmetries, possessing nine limbs, three eyes and three-lobed brains. The eyes jut from the mantle at the end of highly flexible stalks which compensate for their lack of rotating necks. The eyestalks are essentially miniature tentacles, although the Dylmyri traditionally do not count them as limbs. These eyes have a far wider range of viewing configurations than their human counterparts, and Dylmyri can create an all-round field of vision by pointing them at different angles or focus on details by triangulating their input. Naturally, Dylmyri brains dedicate large proportions of their mass to spatial processing and motor control. The organ is located at the base of their mantles, a dome-like structure with numerous ridges and openings that contain the Dylmyri analogue to auditory and olfactory organs. The underside of the mantle contains the gill-lungs Dylmyri use for respiration, and they furthermore conceals six orifices located on the trunk itself, variously used for eating and reproduction. Waste is expelled from a variety of orifices at the bottom of the torso.

The Dylmyri central torso is vaguely column-shaped, from which limbs protrude in a staggered pattern. Three of its nine tentacles are longer and thinner than others, ending in sucker-like organs which actually contain the Dylmyri equivalent to the sense of sensitive taste and smell. The other six tentacles are robust, somewhat flattened, and each end in four horn-like digits with rudimentary dexterity. These are used for both locomotion and manipulation, although individual Dylmyri tend to favor certain limbs for one use or another.

Dylmyri communicate underwater with a series of ultrasonic pulses inaudible to human ears. Above water, their speech organs are somewhat hindered and can only produce sounds that resemble gargling to humans. Even the Dylmyri themselves cannot interpret this very well. Before the ubiquity of radio technology, different cultures invented many ways to deal with this problem – from water-filled speaking tubes to sign language to tremorspeak.

Lifecycle
In an immature Dylmyri, the six primary orifices remain undeveloped and interconnected, capable of ingesting certain types of food and little else. Therefore, a Dylmyri is not male or female until it undergoes maturation. Then these six organs specialize, either growing into mouths capable of ingesting a greater variety of foods, sex organs or vocal organs, something else entirely. All six orifices begin maturation at various paces but generally during the same time period. The mouths generally develop one at a time as not to interrupt a Dylmyri’s diet, but sex organs always mature simultaneously into male or female versions. Whether a Dylmyri becomes male or female depends on the number of orifices that start maturing – an odd number means male and an even number means female. After impregnation, these organs engorge and become large sacs hanging from the female Dylmyri’s side, each containing a developing embryo that hatches by tearing their way out of the sac. While each organ requires individual fertilization in order to receive DNA from the male, a female Dylmyri can have pods of four children at a time this way.

A newborn Dylmyri is small and invertebrate. It can take up to a Terran year for the specks of bone inside them to grow and connect with each other, eventually forming a complete skeleton. After this process is complete, the child Dylmyri can live for many years until it begins to sexually mature. The availability of food and environmental stress can cause great variations in these timeframes.

Distribution
Dylmyri are represented in all three major interstellar alliances. Their homeworld lies within the Dreynar sphere of influence and the C-WEB still contains the concentrations of Dylmyri within the galaxy, but a significant number of politically disaffected émigrés have settled within the OAS and there is little love lost between these two peoples. Furthermore, a smaller proportion have migrated to even more exotic locales or even managed to maintain a precarious neutrality between the two astropolitical blocs.

[Czernobog]

Like I mentioned earlier, the allegiances of the various human polities will be determined by whatever bloc gives them the best deal. Starkland (which is a stupid name, by the way) would potentially be courted by one or more blocs due to its technological advantage in regards to shielding, which means that they'll definitely be trying to bribe them into joining, for example.

The 'Liberty and Freedom' bit was how John Adams sold it to the people, but the real reason that Starkland joined was that the OAS offered help with rebuilding after the war. Compared to C-WEB, which just tried a straight out bribe, he found it much better.

My question right now is the fate of Earth? Do we have any sort of idea as to how politics have molded the planet in the centuries that follow? Are they going to be highly aggressive in tyring to rope in the colonial polities or not? If so, then I could work this to my advantage in regards to one of my polities. Long story short, a group of colonies in Sirius, each one modeled after a nation or region on Earth, start to get the bright idea that if they pool their collective resources together they could be a real powerhouse in their region of space. Naturally, if Earth is going to be jealous of the colonial polities and decides to take them back, then that provides another good reason to unite.

My idea was that Earth would be dominated by the UN, which is also in the OAS, leading to potential tensions between them and Starkland.

[Artemis]

Very, very nice to see the Dylmyri make a return, Invictus.

Regarding Earth, I'm cool with them constantly trying to reign in their former colonies. I was seeing Earth as being not unlike Britain at the dawn of the 20th century - still holding on to a lot of their overseas assets, but the sun is definitely setting, and their influence, especially on the border, is waning. I'm also cool with there being multiple nations on Earth, with even some of them not even members of OAS - hell, what if some of them are still fighting amongst each other?

[Czernobog]

Very, very nice to see the Dylmyri make a return, Invictus.

Regarding Earth, I'm cool with them constantly trying to reign in their former colonies. I was seeing Earth as being not unlike Britain at the dawn of the 20th century - still holding on to a lot of their overseas assets, but the sun is definitely setting, and their influence, especially on the border, is waning. I'm also cool with there being multiple nations on Earth, with even some of them not even members of OAS - hell, what if some of them are still fighting amongst each other?

That sounds good. Perhaps the UN could only have power over Earth and be even more ineffectual than it is already? Perhaps this could be as a result of the 'sun setting', so to speak - Earth has lost most of its power, only having influence inside its solar system and being generally a backwater?

And the idea of nations on Earth still fighting each other is very good.

[Malchus]

I've personally never put much stock in the idea of 'universal translators'.

There's way too many variable to sort out. First you have to find the frequency at which the opposite party's universal translator is trying to contact you, if they're even using the same spectrum. Then you have to have compatible computer protocols for the machines to interface. If they're not using the same type of computer (if one side is using a binary system, but the other has long since moved onto 'holographic' trinary coding then you're already out of luck. Trinary coding isn't that strange for communication. Morse Code is trinary, for instance).

Moreover if one of the species prefers to teach the opposite party simple greetings first ('hello') while the other party prefers to teach concepts that are important to them ('Faith', 'Home', 'Truth'), you get huge miscommunication.

For instance humans might transmit a greeting and their own name for themselves 'Hello. Human.' whereas (using LD races for a sec) the Hemiola will first inform the opposite party where they're from 'Home. Soll'Fa (insert x/y/z coordinates here).', then one species will assume it's learning the other's greeting, while the other assumes it's learning the first's home location.

Moreover, there might even be gross inconsistencies in very similar messages, with Humans greeting with 'Home, Earth, x/y/z' and the Hemiola greeting with 'Home, z/x/y, Soll'fa'.

Essentially the only way to REALLY learn a new language that you have never, ever encountered before is to sit with a native speaker and point out things while saying their names. After that you move to grammar and syntax and context and finally you move into the abstracts.

An AI, no matter how sophisticated, can never do this better than a sentient being, though a Digital Intelligence (a sentient computer) could do it more efficiëntly and faster if paired up with a Digital Intelligence of the opposite party, provided they can point at things to say their names.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say before.

If you'll look back to page 7 where I first brought it up, I basically say that even with the most sophisticated translation devices the translation would still be very basic and rudimentary. The more common and less capable translator devices would render most exchanges pidgin at best. There'd also be a significant lag between what the person would say into the device before it renders the translation. Also, what they'd ideally say would be the most basic of sentences, to make it easier for said device. In essence, device translated conversations would be quite slow.

Most of the languages in the devices are pre-programmed. The more advanced versions may be equipped with a language acquisition device to pick up new languages, but they'd only work if the other device "teaching" it is also similarly equipped. Even then, it would still be quite rudimentary when compared to a living linguits who actually did bother to learn the nuances of the languages from a native speaker.

Despite the translation devices being far from perfect, however, they should still have a significant presence given the scale we're talking about. There would be far from enough sufficiently trained linguists to go around, and too many species with vastly differing vocal organs. The devices would at least allow them some relatively simple and basic communication.

This is explicitly against the instant-perfect-translation "universal translator" as conceived by Star Trek and the like, since that annoys me to no end.

[Czernobog]

Note: rough draft.

Starklandic Military Assets
The Starklandic Fleet

Patriot-class Battleship

Length: 2 miles.

Number of ships: 9

Armament:

Series-9 missile armament, 10 torpedoes, each torpedo containing 100x100 nuclear-tipped AI-guided sub munitions, explosive yield 200 megatons. Standard graser configuration, energy output 150 megatons. 30 bomb-pumped lasers, power output high, can be deployed, and the ship has full electronic warfare capabilities, including counter-hacking and controlled viruses. Drone fighter numbers are approximately 160, each with nuclear missiles and anti-missile weapons. 140 coilguns, able to simultaneously fire and launching RKVs (speed of the projectile is possible to control) are present on each side. Point defence lasers, 150 to a side, defend the ship from missile barrages and fighters, helped by the ship’s not inconsiderable fighter complement.

Shield strength:

Able to take approximately 5 gigatons of damage per second. Sustained bombardment will eventually break the shield, although this has never happened in any battles where the Patriot-class has been involved.

History:

The first ship of the Patriot-class (named the Patriot) was launched by John Coleman, the current president, as a symbol of Starkland’s national pride and an ace in the hole should war break out. It was followed by eight others of its class, an expensive investment but one that has proved its worth multiple times. The eight other ships of its class are named Torch of Liberty, Citadel of Freedom, Strength of Reason, Will of the People, Magnificence, Umbris Potentas Est, Shining Flame and, simply, Justice.

They have proved to be complete overkill on the few missions they have been sent on, annihilating entire (admittedly small) fleets from light minutes away and holding their own in battles where they shouldn’t have won. How much of this is down to superior technology and how much to dumb luck is just speculation, but Starkland has six of these behemoths guarding its home system’s graveddy, so they obviously believe in their strength.

Lady Liberty-class Battle cruiser

Length: 1.5 miles.

Number of ships: 19.

Armament:

Series-10 missile armament, 10 torpedoes, each including 10x265 armour-piercing AI-guided armour-piercing nuclear-tipped missiles. Standard graser configuration, energy output 100 megatons. 100 drone fighters, using nuclear-tipped missiles and anti-missile weapons. 100 coilguns with RKV launch ability on both sides of the ship. The Lady Liberty-class has full electronic warfare capability, including viruses and anti-hacking capabilities, and the class also has access to experimental memetic weapons. The class has heavy point defences which serve as an effective missile screen along its length, which, including its fighters and shields.

Shield strength:

The Lady Liberty has an experimental (and temperamental) shield generator capable of taking 10 gigatons a second, although the kinks are still being worked out and the shields are prone to failure at inopportune moments. It is for this reason that the Lady Liberty has never seen action, although the other ships of its class use the same generators of the Patriot-class, allowing them to actually join a battle.

History:

The Lady Liberty-class was commissioned by John Coleman in order to replace the aging Fortress-class, 19 ships commissioned as the beginning run, hopefully followed by 19 more later. The class is something of a test bed, mostly to experiment with armour-piercing missiles, stronger shields and memetic weapons. The original plan of producing 19 more after the initial run has been cancelled, mostly because the new shielding system is somewhat temperamental, and so the Lady Liberty and its ilk are the most powerful ships Starkland has available save for the Patriot-class.

WiP

[Heretic]

INteresting, interesting, a little America feeling over there. Like it.

So, is there any loose ends that are needed to be tied before we start?

[Malchus]

I think there's still a few kinks to work out before this thing kicks off. Unless, the others are satisfied with what has been discussed thus far.

[Heretic]

Well, whatever questions I have left (still plenty) I can wait answering when we have an organized universe forum. I think we should set it up Comix style, with subforums (characters, places, literature), with a generic free for all in the bottom.

[Czernobog]

I think there's still a few kinks to work out before this thing kicks off. Unless, the others are satisfied with what has been discussed thus far.

I'm pretty satisfied.

EDIT: Note: Edited Starkland.


The Republic of Starkland
Full Name: The United Republic of Starkland.
Systems governed: 16 (not counting military bases, scientific research areas, or listening posts).
Population: 23 billion.
Government Type: Liberal democracy.
Derogatory names: Pinkskins, Blunderers, Human Idiots, Starkland Scum.
Motto: ‘Freedom for all, or injustice for none’.

History:

The Republic of Starkland has a long history, beginning with the twilight years of the Diaspora and the War of Revolution. For decades the colonists had been tired of sending immense taxes to an Earth that gave them no representation in its government, as the Diaspora slowed down and gloom began to hang in the air. It began with a protest in Welford Park, in the colony capital, unimaginatively named Capital, as the people demanded the right of representation on the UN Council. The protest began to turn into a riot, until all hell broke loose.

Sparked by this, the military immediately responded, mowing down the protestors with machineguns and sending in tanks and artillery. When news of this struck, the colony Governor, named John Adams, was forced by public pressure to declare independence. The military, many of them natives, split, with half its members joining the revolt and half deciding to fight for Earth. The fleet orbiting the planet also made its decision, the entire navy joining the fledgling country. The result was war. For five years the system was contested, the UN eventually giving up the nation because of the sheer difficulty of attacking a far-away colony (both in physical space and the graveddy network) and the not inconsiderable drain of the war on their economy. This inspired a wave of similar revolts, some successful, others not, that resulted in the end of the Diaspora and the many human polities scattered throughout space.

For John Adams though, he inherited a country damaged by war, its people bloodied by the fighting and still on the watch for guerrilla and terrorist attacks caused by the remnants of the UN military forces, who had been abandoned by the UN at the end of the war, trapped on a world they had originally guarded and protected.
His government saw a massive economic increase and the driving out of the last remnants of the UN army, but the relations between Starkland and the UN's successor are still bitter to this day.

Starkland rapidly expanded, claiming 16 systems and jumping at the chance to join the OAS. For them, the OAS was the guardian of liberty and freedom throughout the galaxy, and Starkland was founded on liberty and freedom, so why not join?

In reality the situation was different. C-WEB and the OAS offered to let Starkland join them – the OAS offered economic aid and help with recovery; C-WEB tried a straight bribe. Adams considered his options carefully – C-WEB offered 10 billion units of their money, but Adams discovered that, adjusting for inflation, this ’10 billion’ was just 99 million. Realising that C-WEB planned to rip him off, Adams angrily declared that he would rather join the OAS. Starkland officially joined the OAS a day later.

Organisation:

Starkland is governed by a President, who is head of the Executive Office. There are two other offices, the Senate and the Court of Justice, each with checks and balances to ensure that power is not concentrated into one office or the other. The Forum has the ability to propose laws, the President to veto, and the Court of Justice to pass.
As well as its role in passing laws, the Court of Justice is Starkland’s supreme court, in which only the most important cases are discussed. Criminals are taken to the criminal courts, the lawsuits (which are uncommon, because of loser-pays legislation and other such laws) are taken to the Lawsuit courts, but only the most important lawsuits and criminal cases go to the Court of Justice.

The Senate is made up of Senators from the 16 systems that Starkland claims, each representing a single world or moon, except for those that are little more than listening posts, military bases, and scientific research areas.
Each system is judged as a Commonwealth – that is to say, it is larger than a single world (which is known as a County) but larger than Starkland itself. All in all, Starkland is divided into 16 Commonwealths, each being composed out of one to a dozen Counties, the most important (and containing the capital) being the Starkland system itself.

There is an election every five years, the two main parties being the Conservatives and the Liberals, called Cons and Libs colloquially. There are other parties of course, but are so insignificant they do not matter much to the government, and are quite obscure, so much that barely any people vote for them.

Corporations exist in Starkland, but are not allowed lobbyists, to prevent the fate of America, which collapsed economically to the point where millions of dollars became small change and former billionaires starved in the streets, their business empires having collapsed overnight.

The Constitution of Starkland is quite long, and is revered in Starkland as the ‘cornerstone of liberty’, being enshrined in the country’s National Library.

Culture:

Starklandic culture is quite self-consciously based on Old America, but has evolved quite differently in some areas, most notably the suspicion of corporations and the distrust of guns. Guns are forbidden in most systems, the authorities not willing to take the risk. A strong atheistic streak runs through the country, with 45% of the population being atheists. Most of the remainder are, in order of percentages, Christian and Muslim, with a small number of Jews and Agnostics. There is a great respect for and idolisation of the military, and diplomatic solutions are mostly ignored in favour of violence.

Starklandic clothing focuses on fashion first and foremost. Military dress clothing is bright red and gold, covered with medals and gaudily over decorated, while civilian fashion mostly focuses on sober colours and dark clothes, in contrast to the military style. The teen subculture makes heavy use of long leather dusters and other such clothes, over black (most often with the name of a Burning Metal band) T-shirts, with blue jeans.

Starkland has a massive holo-vid industry, which is mostly used to make war movies and propaganda films of dubious quality. Action movies also predominate, and virtuo-games, which have never quite caught on amongst other polities, are extremely popular in Starkland.

The current predominant Starklandic music style is Burning Metal, which focuses on loud music, references to certain obscure horror, high technology, more loud music, and frankly incomprehensible lyrics. Examples of bands that use this style are Necronomicon Alpha, Nyarlathotep Number Nine, and Cthulhu 666.


Military Doctrine:

Starklandic military doctrine focuses on heavy use of powersuited soldiers. Known as the Pioneer Corps, these are used to assault an enemy position, followed by tanks and under the rolling thunder of ortillery. The core of this doctrine can be easily summed up in a few words: ‘there is no overkill’. Then, normal soldiers deploy and consolidate territory, while the Pioneer Corps continues its constant and steamrolling advance.

Psychological warfare is heavily used, and propaganda broadcasts are common, containing memetic viruses that drive enemies insane, as well as other weapons. When occupying territory, Starklandic troops use ‘non-lethal’ weapons, such as hallucinogen grenades, guns that manipulate the nervous system to cause intense agony, ‘softball’ ammo, and other such devices of dubious legality, justifying their use by claiming they’re what is needed to keep the peace. When defending, Starklanders use all kinds of dirty tricks, like nuclear landmines, meme-blasters, auto-defence drones and suddenly-appearing laser fences. Indeed, they often claim that fair fights aren’t actually fair, because you haven’t been stacking the deck in your favour. Starkland is one of the few polities to have energy shields, and uses them on all its capital ships while jealously guarding the secrets of their operation and construction.

Starkland makes incredibly use of neuro-cybernetic manipulators in its forces, to the point where practically every NCO has one, while they are forbidden to civilians. Cybernetics are often heavily used as well, being an easy way to restore a lost limb, compared to the slow-process of vat-growing and the lost functionality of reattachment.

The Operatives are the special forces of Starkland, highly trained, disciplined and given cybernetic enhancements, including neuro-cybernetic manipulators and experimental variations thereof. They have superb reaction times, what might be called telekinesis, access to Starkland’s best weapons, and highly advanced mesh armour making use of non-Newtonian fluids, all packed under a dusty black cloak. They are Starkland’s elite, the best of the best, sent to fight terrorists and assassinate enemy leaders. It is a rare mission indeed where they are not successful.

There is also the Commission of Intelligence, known colloquially as ‘the ghosts’, or just ‘spooks’. They have access to high-tech stealth suits, automated spy drones, and a small number of drone stealth-ships when major enemy targets need to be eliminated, as well as the power to do anything they wish when interrogating captured terrorists ‘in the interests of liberty’. They are accountable to only the President, though their power is thoroughly kept in check.

The agents are selected from the most patriotic and most intelligent applicants, as an attempt to ensure loyalty and quality. Even this is not foolproof – some agents go rogue, but their activities and (usual) deaths are hushed up to ensure the population does not panic. Where the Operatives are the Special Forces, the COI are the spies, the spooks who make sure that Starkland has knowledge of its enemies, within and without.

Homeworld:

Starkland (the planet) is earth standard, with the exact same gravity and distance from its star. Atmosphere is roughly the same, with an oxygen content of 28%, as a result of terraforming. It has two moons, called Liberty and Reason respectively. Each has major cities on it, often named after mythological gods and goddesses – for example the Luna Habitat – and are important in defence calculations. That is because both moons only appear on each hemisphere of the planet, and are never seen together in the same sky, thus allowing military defence bases (including mass drivers and immense nuclear silos) to defend each hemisphere equally.

Starkland has three major continents – named New America, New Pacifica, and New Britannia. New America is where Capital lies, and is the core of Starkland’s culture and government. The weather is mild and sunny, though inland it becomes heavily rainy and massive sea storms are often encountered on the southern coast.

New Pacifica lies south of New America, and is known for its deserts and thick jungles, which are incredibly inhospitable for human settlement. The air is so humid and damp that humans need rebreather masks, and paths have to be rehacked daily lest they be consumed by the thick jungle plants and the ever-devouring swamps. Still, the human population survives in some form, in the form of large hab-domes connected by long highways. The area saw the use of heavy jungle fighting during the War of Revolution, and is surrounded by military bases where memetic weapons and auto-fighters are tested.

New Britannia is the most uninhabited of the continents. Roughly the size of Europe, it lies east of New America and north-east from New Pacifica, such that it is on the opposite hemisphere. It is sparsely settled, with poor soil in most areas and constant raids from the descendants of UN guerrillas who have forgotten their cause and now just attempt to topple Starkland, a thing which is completely impossible to them.

As they are not much of a threat, the OIS allows their continued existence, most often just allowing them to sally forth from their caves and then run away when they actually meat real resistance, and thus they are considered a nuisance rather than a proper threat. As a result of the constant raids, gun control is more relaxed here than in other areas of Starkland, most families keeping a few shotguns for when the ‘unos’ come raiding, using them more to scare away the inexperienced and cowardly raiders rather than to actually hurt them, which these weapons are rather hard at doing.

[Destructionator]

After all, let's face it: I'm inherently opposed to a true hard sci-fi combat system, as it's boring as absolute fuck.

I'd say almost all combat is boring as fuck. The real excitement is the build up to the battle. Some examples:

Star Trek II: the actual battles were short. Khan blasted Kirk the first time and the second time they exchanged fire like twice. But it was exciting leading up to the battles - Kirk figuring out (or rather failing to figure out) what was going on the first time, Kirk taunting Khan the second time, and to a lesser extent, dealing with the aftermath (for hate's sake!).

Star Trek VI: The battle here was indeed awesome, but it was kinda one sided - Chang just pwned Kirk. The more awesome part was the brief scenes on the Enterprise and Excelsior running into there. Spock's countdown to transporter range, Sulu's "fly it apart then!".

new Battlestar Galactica: The end of "Pegasus". The awesome would have ended the moment anyone fired a shot, but oh sweet jesus the awesome was AWESOME with Adama and Cain talking on the phone.

Star Trek: TNG: "Best of Both Worlds, part I". The battle there was again awesome (though my favorite part is Picard ordering to skedattle as soon as that tractor beam is busted). God that whole episode was awesome. Anyway, the best part: "Mr Worf, fire." What an awesome buildup!


There are a few counter examples, of course. "Yesterday's Enterprise", the end of Star Wars. nBSG "Exodus".

But even those, it wasn't so much the battle itself what was awesome. Picard's badassery could have been done with almost any tech. Exodus' awesome was primarily Adama's badassery and secondarily the big damn heroes of Pegasus and could have been created with any tech (though it would be slightly different in execution).

Star Wars was exciting because of the well executed radio chatter. I don't think it would have worked without some kind of open fighter thing (for example, my stealth fighter proposal wouldn't let the chatter happen), but it needn't be little maneuverable fighters; hell, they barely actually maneuvered at all in that battle (notice the Rebels just flew in straight lines 90% of the time buying time for the lead bomber by letting Vader blast them from behind - something similar to what might happen in hard sf).

I think it could be reproduced with something like hard tech.

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What I guess I'm saying is combat is as awesome as the characters, which gives a fair amount of flexibility on the actual tech.

[Siege]

The Solidarity Wars live again!

[Mobius 1]

After all, let's face it: I'm inherently opposed to a true hard sci-fi combat system, as it's boring as absolute fuck.

I'd say almost all combat is boring as fuck. The real excitement is the build up to the battle. Some examples:

Yeah, because Star Trek is the definative authority on space battles. Oh wait.

new Battlestar Galactica: The end of "Pegasus". The awesome would have ended the moment anyone fired a shot, but oh sweet jesus the awesome was AWESOME with Adama and Cain talking on the phone.

But we have so much more exciting battles with Vipers flying backwards (fighters doing nods to Newton's second law? Woah), the Galactica letting nukes fly, and the Pegasus ramming a zillion basestars with it. Granted, most of the nBSG's badassery comes from it's characters, but it's not exactly the hardest of verses.

What I guess I'm saying is combat is as awesome as the characters, which gives a fair amount of flexibility on the actual tech.

It all comes down to personal preferences. I'm not one for (sorry Malchus) non-LOS laser exchanges at extreme range. If we were truly running hard sci-fi, it'd all be drones, and I. Don't. Care. About. Robots. It takes a degree of characterization I guarantee almost no one here has.

[Destructionator]

Yeah, because Star Trek is the definative authority on space battles. Oh wait.

My bias shows through there; despite being ostensibly a nerd, I'm not really familiar with many shows/movies/books. However, I know ST:TNG and films 2,4, and 6 very well, so they are often at the top of my mind.

But we have so much more exciting battles with Vipers flying backwards (fighters doing nods to Newton's second law? Woah), the Galactica letting nukes fly, and the Pegasus ramming a zillion basestars with it. Granted, most of the nBSG's badassery comes from it's characters, but it's not exactly the hardest of verses.

That stuff is pretty cool, I'll admit.

It all comes down to personal preferences. I'm not one for (sorry Malchus) non-LOS laser exchanges at extreme range.

Hard sf battles needn't be that way. What if the range is short to begin with?

I'm sure somewhere in my ramblings in my 'verse I talked about a suprising result I found - space fighters seemed like a natural technology.

The reason is the distances aren't necessarily very long. If you have a hundred habitats all at L5 and they fight some limited conflicts with each other, fighters are very possibly what they may use.

Call it too chaotic for an automated system and you'll want human operators (assume full AI isn't going to be present). Say there is too much jamming for remote control and you'll want pilots in the spacecraft.

Everyone is so close that breaking out the big battleships is a waste of time; they won't have the time to get up to speed so getting them around the numerous neutral habitats in the middle is a pain (it is also too crowded for surface guns on your habitat to be used for a direct attack). A simple chemical engine on a small ship could fly to and from the target in at most a number of hours.


It leads to an Air Force model. Your fighters launch from your colony, fly to the other one, blast it, and come home in the same day.

Once you break their defenses, time to land the light infantry in the other guy's hab, and maybe your fighters can fly right in too to cover them. Since there is no actual gravity, they can thrust around the axis mostly as if it is space. (The Zeon dopp fighter from Mobile Suit Gundam is meant to work that way.) Or just stick to air strikes against the inside.

Note that even a somewhat large hole in a habitat isn't a big immediate problem to the people inside since they are so gigantic that you are still talking a very very long time for the atmosphere loss to be fatal.




Anyway, the above is dependent on a somewhat tightly knit setting, which I think is actually among the most realistic ones, but not what we have here. Or is it? There would probably be plenty of juicy targets right close to graveddies, especially if there are a bunch in one place (hubs!). Send your fighters through the jump point, blast something nearby, fly back.

If jump drives are too bulky or expensive or whatever to fit on individual fighters, you introduce the carrier.

The threat of this would keep the infrastructure spread out and at some distance from the jump point, giving the defenses more room to work and a bigger warning time that something is coming.

They'd also want to have firm control of both points of it.

But if things are too spread out, it means attackers can just send big battleships and punch through you. The defenders will probably want a middle ground - be at a range beyond the optimum fighter range, but before the optimum battleship range.



Anyway, this is indeed getting more fun!

[Dakarne]

Adam, a much better example for space battles would actually be the Star Wars films. All of them. Even the crappy ones (TPM and AotC), because Star Wars is far more interesting and exciting than Star Wars when it comes to actual fight scenes. Of course, that Star Trek's always been inferior in almost every respect doesn't help. You need to be thinking the Battle of Endor or the Battle of Coruscant more than the battle between the Reliant and the Enterprise. That was a great film, but the battle scene was more or less a fundamentally bland backdrop to what actually made it into a great film. And that was the actual storyline itself.

Overall, though, you ought to watch Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars, the Serenity film and a few others. And you need to watch them a lot. If it's going to be about space battles, you need to watch the films that are, of course, good at it.

Also have a look at clips of games like Starlancer, Independence War, Freespace 2, Homeworld and other such. Something with fast and frantic combat action > Star Trek when it comes to space battles, mate. For literature, look into the space battle during Iain M. Banks' Excession - though that's probably on a scale and using weapons that quite frankly doesn't seem to fit the Solidarity Wars. But still, there's always something you can learn from it. I'd recommend other sci-fi literature, but I practically breathe fantasy novels, and don't really bother with sci-fi, so I'm probably under-informed. Also remember that I'm very fairly knowledgeable about some of the mechanics of what ought to happen 'in real life' with space battles (though I couldn't crunch the numbers, and don't ever intend to), and what appeals to me more is something that's either exciting or interesting. Not a droned-on science lesson. Hard sci-fi is all well and good, but you have to insert the real-world principles seamlessly into a properly-structured plot, or it's just boring.

[Destructionator]

because Star Wars is far more interesting and exciting than Star Wars when it comes to actual fight scenes.

lol typo. Though, I agree:

You need to be thinking the Battle of Endor or the Battle of Coruscant more than the battle between the Reliant and the Enterprise.

Blasphemy time: I found Return of the Jedi to be ass boring almost from start to finish.

But let my pull out my tape and watch the battle again. ...ugh, my vcr isn't working and my dvd player has been broken for a while. Let's try youtube.

Not the original editing, but still, yawn. Nice special effects, but no tension, no worry.

In the battle in A New Hope, the actual movements were boring - like I said before, 90% of the times, they fly in straight lines letting Vader kill them from behind. But the battle was exciting because we got to feel the tension.

Every time they cut to the base on the ground and we see the worried Leia and general dude just standing there watching, it was awesome. I think 'oh dear this really is serious'. Leia and the other folks down there were in the same position as a hard sf crew could be in - the outcome of the battle matters a lot to them, but they are mostly powerless to do anything about it.

Anyway, the best part was the radio talking. The pilot's chatter over the radio was brilliant from start to finish - even in the brief time we see them, we get a bit of an attachment to the characters. Those random pilots were real people and they were really screwed. They all got names, they all got flaws ("Loosen up!"), and so on. They all mattered.

Contrast to ROTJ where Lando and Wedge were the only pilots who we really got to know at all - everyone else might have well been drones. They fly, they blow up. Who cares?


ROTS, with the exception of the ending sword fight, was just a series of WTFs and who-gives-a-shits.

The opening battle. Again, nice special effects, but terrible excitement. What the hell were they doing there? Again, ANH's final battle had a clear goal and clear consequences of failure. What was the ROTS battle about? Saving Palpatine, according to the opening scroll. But why does that matter to the characters? If they fail, would anyone care? I didn't.

The only characters we saw that we got to know were Obi-Wan, Anakin (played in a terribly boring manner by his actor), and R2-D2. We knew none of them were going to have anything happen - there was never any danger for anyone. The lame writing and especially Anakin's actor's terrible performance didn't help any; the characters didn't even care about it, so why should I?

Despite all the fast movement, it was a giant snore.



The lightsaber fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin was more akin to Reliant vs Enterprise, and IMO the only high quality part of the entire film. There, we saw two characters we knew fighting for reasons we could understand. We could relate to both of the combatants and knew what was at stake.

That was awesome.

Overall, though, you ought to watch Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars, the Serenity film and a few others.

If my DVD player was working, I'd watch some of season 1 and 2 of nbsg and probably see some good stuff. Off memory though, the good battles are:

That episode where they take the tylium asteroid from the cylons had an awesome battle. Here it is, "The Hand of God" from season 1.

IIRC "The Captain's Hand" from season 2 had a pretty good battle too, that centers around Lee finally deciding to save the day.

And then season 3 has "Exodus" whose battle was without a doubt pure win in just about every way. The battle was awesome and the characters were strong as ever.

I don't even remember the rest of season 3, but don't think there was any more quality combat. I haven't seen most of season 4 yet.

I'm surely forgetting something, but all I can recall are those one good fight per season. I think the mini had a good one too.

Resurrection Ship had a battle cool looking battle, but it was lame to watch; I blame the editing. The basestars got pwned but it had really abrupt scene transitions and didn't feel exciting at all. However it did have some awesome: everyone plotting to kill everyone else "I want you to shoot Admiral Cain in the head." God EJO rocks.


Never seen Serenity so I can't comment on that.

and what appeals to me more is something that's either exciting or interesting.

Me too, which is why I say focus on the characters. ROTS and ROTJ prove that nice special effects and fast moving things don't make a good battle.