The Solidarity Wars reboot

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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Artemis »

A few things we might want to address as far as tech levels goes are cybernetics, psychic/psionic abilities, genetic engineering, terraforming, things like that. Do these exist, and how advanced are they if they do?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Magister Militum »

SiegeTank wrote: The use of nukes in combat I think should be commonplace. I've a hard time thinking of anything better than fusion warheads to mount on anti-ship missiles-- big capital-buster smart missiles could each carry half a dozen submunitions fitted with four-stage 75 megaton thermonuclear warheads :twisted:. Who needs fancy antimatter weapons when you can build something like that?
Hell yes. At the tech level were aiming for right now, nuclear warfare is going to be very common. Throw in modern armor, hypersonic fighter-bombers, and datalinked point-defense lasers to swat down the occasional atomic barrage, and the modern battlefields of TSW are going to get very interesting indeed. And, of course, there is always my personal favorites of antimatter-catalyzed or enhanced-radiation fusion missiles, and the possible use of extremely high-yield antimatter weapons for those real tough buggers. :twisted:

As for the current tech level, I would imagine that things such as cybernetics and genetic engineering would exist. Psionics are another matter entirely, as people can have varying views on them. Of course, we can do alternatives to psychics; if a polity has access to basic electromagnetic manipulation and cybernetics, then who is to say that they couldn't use those technologies to produce a telekinetic?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Mobius 1 »

A few things we might want to address as far as tech levels goes are cybernetics, psychic/psionic abilities, genetic engineering, terraforming, things like that. Do these exist, and how advanced are they if they do?
I'd have to say yes to all of the above. Genetic engineering and cybernetics could be accomplished in a mere hundred years, terraforming (though for the sake of plot we could cut down on the time conversion could take) is not exactly too over the top. In the end, as Militum points out, cybernetics can produce some effects close enough to sci-fi-ish psionics- telepathy can simply be an in-depth brain scan conducted from range. Remember, we're several hundred years into the future. We need to give credit scientific advances instead of being incredibly conservative.

Since shields are out, however, how about anti-grav?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

I don't like psychic powers as a rule, but I guess that they can be explained away as technology or some kind of inbuilt radio system. One thing I would suggest, however; Psychic powers should not be easy to use on the enemy, because they are a different species and therefore have different brains than you. In the same way that the common cold would not in fact destroy any possible alien invaders, the power of mind control would not allow one to turn an alien invaders warriors against him.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Siege »

Mobius 1 wrote:Since shields are out, however, how about anti-grav?
I wouldn't say shields are out entirely, just for most polities. The same goes for anti-gravity, although obviously spinning (parts of) ships etc. are an easy way around that.

I think psionics are a tricky subject. I'm not inherently opposed to them but keep in mind that for example an individual capable of creating significant electromagnetic effects (either naturally or through cybernetic enhancement) could potentially also throw up a shield. And I can't help but think that something like a deep brain scan from a distance ought to have pretty destructive side-effects.

Maybe we should stick to cybernetics granting minor 'psionic-y' effects, e.g. implants that act as a really good lie detector by analyzing body language, temperature, eye movement etc, internal radios*, or energy thingies that can ignite a fuel source.

Terraforming has my blessing, as long as its a limited process that takes a long time and doesn't mess with fundamental things like a planet's gravity.

* Though please, no GitS-style people-hacking. It's a really silly concept.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Magister Militum »

All this talk on the technology level has me asking (sorry, Moby) where starfighters are going to fit into all of this? With the lack of shields and anti-gravity for most polities, fighters are going to be much more fragile than what we normally see, and if that's the case, would it really be wise to create dedicated starfighters? Transatmospheric fighters would obviously still be needed for planetary invasions and such, but are really going to be seeing swarms of them fighting among warships? Or are we going to go down the more realisitc route and have them operate more akin to naval patrol bombers or missile corvettes?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Heretic »

:shock: Hardcore Science? That will be tough for me, being that I'm still bottom of that field (still learning about atoms and that is eating me).

Still, I agree with Magister, how will space battles come in, excluding anti-missiles and such...heck, what type of items are needed to stop laser beams in space? Also, plasma weapons eligible?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Artemis »

I'm a big advocate of keeping fighters in the setting, though they do break a few hard sci-fi rules. I agree, Star Wars-style dogfights wouldn't be really plausible in space, but something more like modern fighter combat, where two dogfighters might never even get visual on one another, could be done easily enough. And if we go with torpedo boats, we're gonna want something that can chase them down, and then some of those same craft to act as escort. And if fighters are made more fragile by hard-hitting weapons and the (mostly) lack of shields, then the people who fly them just have their genitals made of that much more brass and lead, making them even cooler in my book.

Plasma weapons are a trickier subject. I think they can be made to work, but the question is, would they be worth it? A plasma weapon is really unstable, can be disrupted by things like electromagnetic fields, might not have terribly good range, and I don't see how they'd do any more damage than a nuke or a high-power particle cannon would. I can see some possible use as a ground weapon, though, especially for more slash-and-burn style armies.

My own stance on psionics is either keep it really weak or really rare. I'm cool with the idea of them being a product of cybernetics or genegineering - actually that fits really well into what I want to do with the Sylphs.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Heretic »

Sounds good to me..except being a newb in this world, how does modern air combat work? I don't think I can really get much info from wiki on that subject...
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Blackwing »

A few assorted comments..

Laser weapons:

Laser weapons, as they are portrayed in most sci-fi are simply not viable. They'd be utterly useless in space combat for instance.
Primarily because there's just no way to make a laser 'cannon' big enough to do noticable damage to a ship's hull without frying your own ship in the process.

But also because it would simply be way too dangerous to use them. A laser keeps going and going and going at the speed of light after you fire it and miss and there's no atmosphere to reduce it's power so a 'lethal' blast is going to stay that way for hours, days or even years.

Essentially, when you're defending a Grav-Eddy, the last thing you want to do is fire a laser at the enemy and risk hitting your own defenses, or the colony it belongs to, or the nearby tradelanes, etc..

This problem exists with other weapons as well, but with massdrivers or missiles, you're at the very least not dealing with an invisible beam of death travelling at light speed.

Anti-Gravity/Artificial Gravity:

Actually, with room-temperature superconductors, fake anti-gravity (and thus artificial gravity) seems possible...

A very rudimentary artificial gravity system can be achieved if a ship uses superconductive wires for it's electrical system:

Simply run the wires through the desired 'ceiling' and then work ferro-metallic threads (and plates) into the crew's uniforms.

This will push the crew members against the floor.

Unlike 'magnetic boots', which simply pull you towards any ferro-metallic surface, this will allow crew members to walk, run and even jump, instead of being 'stuck' to the floor. They'll also float 'down' automatically after jumping, rather than weightlessly floating in 'mid air'.

Essentially, this isn't true gravity, but it at least gives the illusion thereof.

Space Fighters:

Space fighters are not that unlikely. If you want to see a good spacefighter design (though the way they fly in the series is not completely realistic) check out Babylon 5's Star Furies. They have a main engine, four 540 degree-rotation engines for manoeuvring and assorted thrusters for fine control.

A spacefighter built like that would have one significant advantage over a capital ship in that it would be able to accelerate, turn and stop much faster.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

But also because it would simply be way too dangerous to use them. A laser keeps going and going and going at the speed of light after you fire it and miss and there's no atmosphere to reduce it's power so a 'lethal' blast is going to stay that way for hours, days or even years.
Actually Atomic Rockets page on space weapons indicates that even a high powered X ray laser will only be lethal for under an hour before the beam widens too much. However, they do seem to agree with your assessment that radiating the heat away from the damn thing would be a task of sysiphus, I believe it quotes a figure of 20% of the energy going into the laser and a horrible 80% turning to waste heat.

Having said that, lasers could still be useful over long ranges, for reasons that Destructionator has specified in one of his blogs. A missile takes far, far longer to cross any given distance than does a laser beam.

On space fighters: Considering the kind of insane maneouvers these devices will probably have to endure, would it not be more sensible simply to make them robots? It isn't as if they would need to be particularly bright to protect primary unit and engage-destroy hostile units, certainly not to any extent that I think the programmers of the far future would find difficult.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Artemis »

As an alternative, have them be remote-controlled. For some reason I'm really liking the idea of a bunch of fighter jockeys scrambling to get to what are basically glorified arcade machines when Red Alert sounds.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

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In the end, that was the compromise I came up with for my group back in the OZ TSW. I had stealthed, manned megafighters that sat back and oversaw the coordination of a drone squadron. AI, in our verse, could be rather expensive, to the point where you don't want to stick it on obviously expendable drones. While the drones wouldn't be collectively stupid (no one individual could coordinate so many drones from the ground up), they'd still need real-time tactical oversight and direction.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Malchus »

So, very brief recap of tech discussion so far:

Shields, Anti-/artificial grav - may have them to a limited degree, mostly for the really advanced races. The latter can be done with spinning sections or by playing with superconductors.

Lasers - may be somewhat iffy, but not wholly out of the realm of possibility given tech levels.

Missiles - standard ship-to-ship weaponry, especially with nuke warheads.

Rail/coil guns - same as above, IIRC.

Fighters - could be possible as UCAVs or, if stealth, manned.

Terraforming - no objects as far as I can tell.

Psionics - limited extent, possible through enhancements. Might not affect other species as well due to brain differences.

Genetic engineering - again, as far as I can tell, no real objections.

Did I miss anything?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Heretic »

Well, being that my race isn't human, nor have a human mindset, I'm fine with the starfighter thing. But now, how is defense played here for the big Trekkie ships? And how does Anti-gravity specifically work as a shield? I somehow couldn't catch that. And would there be a way to deflect a laser, like let's say, a huge heat-proof mirror? Sorry, but I am totally naive in this type of sci fi. I sticked with Star Wars technology with real life military tactics for a long time.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Malchus »

I didn't say anti-grav could work as a shield. I just lumped them both together in the above summary. What I meant to say was that they'd only be available for the more advanced races.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

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Maybe some races use fighers whilst others don't. They don't have to be entirely practical; they could have survived as a concept for cultural reasons. Fighters could also be very large and not something we'd immediately recognize as a fighter; who's to say a future fighter isn't a 200m long brick of metal equipped with massive frontal armor, a bay full of nukes, and a fusion torch at the back? And finally they could be piloted by AI. Remote control, however, seems like a bad plan -- any half-decent enemy would jam the crap out of systems like that. It's the same reason you wouldn't expect UAVs to work against a competent enemy not made up of mud huts in a valley somewhere.

Personally I would prefer not to see plasma weapons. They essentially are particle cannons, really silly ones at that. Anything used to force the plasma to maintain cohesion would probably make a better weapon on itself. It just doesn't work for me.

Lasers can be viably cooled: either through the use of massive radiators, noble gas or liquid metal active cooling, or heat sinks (simple rock will do; conveniently it can also double as armor). (As Booted pointed out lasers become diffused after a while so the 'going on' bit isn't an issue.) It's not particularly easy, but their prodigious reach is probably worth the trade-offs.

Artificial gravity through superconductors is not a good idea. I can't quite articulate why, but apart from that room-temperature superconduction is by no means an easy feat it just strikes me as a Bad Plan to have your entire ship woven through with massively powerful unshielded magnetic fields. After all, we might be talking about continuous exposure to MRI-level magnetic fields here. What's that going to do to electronics, bodies, not to mention your ship's EM signature?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Malchus »

I think there's one very important bit of technology we've forgotten to bring up: translators. Now, maybe it's because linguistics is such a big part of the Masters course I'm taking, but I've realized just how insanely varied language can be. This makes the Star Trek-style universal translator (wherein the translation is near-instant) just look like complete bullshit and a huge stretch of SoD to me. Given how some parts of a sentence can be said at the beginning in one language may be said at the end of it in another, then the only way those universal translators could work is if they can somehow predict what a person's going to say before he/she says it. And that's not even taking into account how those things seem to be able to figure out previously un-encountered language from just hearing snippets of it. Going the other route, living interpreters, is also a stretch since the plethora of aliens in TSW would have varied vocal organs. It would be unrealistic if every race's vocal organs can produce the sounds of the others.

In this regard, I propose that TSW translators should be devices that have simplified languages (removing colloquialisms and other such annoying causes of lexical ambiguity) stored into them. A speaker would input a simplified version of his native language into it, and it would render that in a simplified version of the target language before transmitting and vice versa. Depending on the quality of the device and the syntax of the other language, the translated renderings would be almost pidgin-like. That would make communication between two species rather slow, but I think that just adds realism to the whole thing. Of course, if two species vocal organs are similar enough that they can learn each others languages, then we could still have more traditional interpreters for certain races. However, I would think the majority of cross-species communication would be via translation device.

As for previously un-encountered languages, the translation device might also have some sort of Language Acquisition Device (which is a sort of an in joke on my part as it refers to something suggested by linguist Noam Chomsky). The LAD would basically turn two translation devices into simultaneous teacher-learners. They would initially send simple snippets and samples of languages to each other before moving on to more complex forms until they are finally able to communicate with each other at the speed futuristic computer systems would be capable of--essentially an accelerated version of the entire language learning and teaching process.

What say you folks?
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Blackwing »

Actually there is a very good reason why cooling lasers on ships isn't viable in a hard science setting.

Yes, you're getting the heat away from the weapons preventing them from melting after the second shot. Instead, however, you're just steamboiling your entire crew.
Artificial gravity through superconductors is not a good idea. I can't quite articulate why, but apart from that room-temperature superconduction is by no means an easy feat it just strikes me as a Bad Plan to have your entire ship woven through with massively powerful unshielded magnetic fields. After all, we might be talking about continuous exposure to MRI-level magnetic fields here. What's that going to do to electronics, bodies, not to mention your ship's EM signature?
Well...

Humans are already relatively close to near-room temperature superconductors and besides, they wouldn't have to be exactly room temperature, since spaceships require a LOT of cooling in order to prevent the crew from melting.

Magnetic fields are not a problem for Superconductors, they're EM immune. You can't shield your ships from EM anyway, a faraday cage wouldn't work since there's no 'earth/ground' to connect them to to dissipate the energy.

Lastly it's not an MRI level magnetic field. MRI works by taking a superconductive magnet and rotating and switching that on and off to create the 'resonance' part of MRI, but superconductive wiring would simplt create and 'anti-magnetic' field that softly pushes ferro-metallic objects away (and is a bit more 'aggresive' with magnets).

In fact, I would go so far as to say the Superconductive wiring is essential to interstellar space travel and combat for several reasons:

1. Superconductors produce no waste heat. And since heat management is the most important thing you have to worry about this is a good thing. If you have a 200m long ship full of copper/gold/any semi-conductor wires that you're running a direct (or worse yet, an alternating) current through, you might as well fly through space in a frickin' EZ-bake oven.

2. Superconductors are completely Immune to EM fields and EMP. If anyone, be it you or your enemy, is using nuclear payloads as part of their weapons you'd better hope you're using superconductive wiring, or else, the first nuke that goes off is going to cripple every electrical system your ship has. Superconductive wiring in the hull, however (even if you're not running power through it) will keep everyone inside your ship safe from the EMP AND a lot of the radiation (since ionizing radiation is dealt with by the superconductor's anti-magnetic field)

3. Superconductors in the hull will cause most cosmic radiation to bounce off your ship. This means you are less visible on passive scanners (outside what would be visible range, you'd be completely undetectable to passive scanners), your crew-members are protected from glowing in the dark and developing superpowers of the stretching/becoming invisible/turning into fire or rock varieties (or much more likely: cancer) and you won't be emitting any EM radiation since the wiring keeps all EM radiation produced inside the ship inside and all EM produced outside of the ship on the outside. If you're afraid that the contained EM radiation is hazardous to the crew, it's in no way possible to produce more EM than the earth's core, for instance, does and we've evolved in that without problems for billions of years.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

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Laser cooling is hardly an unsolvable problem. Like I said before, you could use heat sinks (rock will do, so will ice, but a purpose-designed nanocarbon honeycomb material might be optimal), or radiators, or active cooling (with gas or liquid metal). You could combine some of these steps: cryogenically cool the lasing array, cycle the coolant material through a heat sink or radiators to dump the excess heat, rinse and repeat.

The technology to do any of this isn't particularly exotic either: for example the AIM-9X Sidewinder contains a cryoengine to cool the seeker elements, and the Soviet Project 705 "Alfa" SSN used molten lead to cool its nuclear reactor.

Now obviously the bigger and more powerful the laser the more difficult it will be to cool the thing, but since lasers offer such an obvious advantage over many other weapons (lightspeed ho!) I think it'd be well worth the trouble. And besides, it's not like the crew necessarily has to be anywhere near the cannon when it fires. Hey, the crew might not even be baseline human-- in my old FMC setting the crews of military torchships were genetically engineered and cybernetically enhanced to survive the rigors of space combat (high G, hot ships, etc.)

EDIT: Insofar as superconductivity is concerned, am I to understand this system would be harnessing the Meissner effect to generate 'push'? If so, are you sure simple threads in the crew's clothing will generate sufficient repulsion to simulate ~1G?

Also, I'm not disputing that superconductors ought to be present in-setting. I'm just questioning whether they would be (1) functional at room-temperature and (2) usable for this particular purpose.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Blackwing »

Siege, where are you going to dump the heat?

It's space, there's no air to radiate the heat into. You can cool your laser cannons to keep them from melting, but the heat has to go somewhere and that somewhere is on your ship, with 80% of the energy going to heat, you'll melt your own ship long before you damage the enemy.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Mobius 1 »

This is perhaps interesting, as we can handwave in some areas and follow realism in other to create something of a unique combat system. We've already establish we're nowhere near following hard sci-fi physics to the letter. If we take Blackwing's argument to heart, perhaps we could meld a more close-range, missile-based combat system. I realize there's No Stealth in Space, but if we were willing to cut corners, I'd love the old (if untrue) sub combat metaphor: ships- or even fleets- hunt each other until one gets the drop on the other, and there begins a massive exchange of missiles. Obviously one missile can be intercepted before it gets to the target ship, initiating a massive set of swarms and counterswarms and jamming and damn good ECM as the fleets gradually move closer.

After all, let's face it: I'm inherently opposed to a true hard sci-fi combat system, as it's boring as absolute fuck.
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Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Siege »

Space is not a perfect insulator. Just because convection and conduction do not work in space doesn't mean radiation won't. The fact that radiation is reaching us from space means you can radiate into space as well.

This is a mechanism that existing spacecraft already use to dump waste heat (the shuttle has them, for example). A common way for satellites do it is to run some hot fluid through radiator panels facing open space (away from the sun, obviously). These will radiate energy in the infra-red, the fluid will be cooled, and the excess heat is disposed of. More heat means bigger radiators but the principle still applies: radiate energy in the proper spectrum means dumping heat means cooling the ship.

LockMart also has an article on their proprietary 'heat rejection radiators' up on their website. Another article on the subject can be found here.

Moreover, ships outfitted with nuclear thermal rockets or fusion torches could also use their exhaust to carry away waste heat, negating the use for radiators entirely (they'd just need some way of transferring the heat from the machinery to the engines).

EDIT: And an obvious way to cool a laser if you don't want to use fragile radiators is to store the waste heat in the cryogenic gas. Vent the gas, vent the heat. Of course, to this is associated the rather significant drawback that when you run out of gas, you can no longer fire your laser...

Finally, more interesting ideas on the subject (including liquid droplet radiators) can be found here.
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Czernobog
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 9:27 am
Location: Holy Terra

Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Czernobog »

Mobius 1 wrote:This is perhaps interesting, as we can handwave in some areas and follow realism in other to create something of a unique combat system. We've already establish we're nowhere near following hard sci-fi physics to the letter. If we take Blackwing's argument to heart, perhaps we could meld a more close-range, missile-based combat system. I realize there's No Stealth in Space, but if we were willing to cut corners, I'd love the old (if untrue) sub combat metaphor: ships- or even fleets- hunt each other until one gets the drop on the other, and there begins a massive exchange of missiles. Obviously one missile can be intercepted before it gets to the target ship, initiating a massive set of swarms and counterswarms and jamming and damn good ECM as the fleets gradually move closer.

After all, let's face it: I'm inherently opposed to a true hard sci-fi combat system, as it's boring as absolute fuck.
I myself was thinking that battles would tend to be short, each side stealthily sneaking through space, trying to find the other, and then pouncing. Drawn out battles would happen when both sides 'pounce' on each other.
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years.
You have little of account to show for your efforts.
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things.

And we shall do so again.
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Booted Vulture
Posts: 965
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:33 pm

Re: The Solidarity Wars reboot

Post by Booted Vulture »

Kamin997 wrote: I myself was thinking that battles would tend to be short, each side stealthily sneaking through space, trying to find the other, and then pouncing. Drawn out battles would happen when both sides 'pounce' on each other.
There is NO stealth in space

I do happen to agree with Mobius though, trying to stick to hard science, leads to long pointless discussions about exactly what 'hard science' means and what's realistic and what's not. In the end "Rule of Cool" is a much better way to go. Although everyone's idea of cool will be differently.

EDIT: And an obvious way to cool a laser if you don't want to use fragile radiators is to store the waste heat in the cryogenic gas. Vent the gas, vent the heat. Of course, to this is associated the rather significant drawback that when you run out of gas, you can no longer fire your laser...

Finally, more interesting ideas on the subject (including liquid droplet radiators) can be found here.
There's no reason starships can't use both systems, have big large radiators when in normal modes but in emergencies and in combat when radiators have to be retracted they can still be able to vent large amounts of cooling fluid in to space. (Hell after the battle's done maybe they can send out shuttles with ramscoops to collect it depending on how quickly it would disperse.)
Ah Brother! It's been too long!
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