Random ideas (again)

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Re: Random ideas (again)

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In the end, the pious invading vampire slayers may find their entire invasion was orchestrated by one of the vampire dukes as a way to discredit a peer and thin the ranks of his followers :).
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Somes J »

Inspired by a thread from SB.com with the original topic being the Umayyid Caliphate ISOTed (teleported) from the Middle Ages to the present day.
I wrote:Personally I think the inverse of this scenario might be more interesting:

Modern Middle East ISOT to the Middle Ages.

This is sort of like just like any other "random primitive kingdom ISOT to present" scenario: the people in the Caliphate find themselves helpless before the modern world and get completely dominated economically, militarily if it comes to that, and probably culturally.

On the other hand I think it'd be kind of interesting to think how a part of the world that historically has sort of been kicked around for the last hundred years would react to suddenly finding themselves dropped into the past and effectively being super-advanced alien invaders armed with technology indistinguishable from magic to the rest of the world.

I'm betting in such a modern Middle East ISOT scenario you'd have lots of people claiming it's a miracle from Allah meant to grant them the opportunity to "correct" history. And under the circumstances you could say that doesn't even sound that kooky. The sociology, politics etc. would be pretty interesting, there's probably a pretty good book in that for anyone inclined to write it.

Hmm, maybe I'll go make a thread on that...
No, really, I think that could make a pretty sweet premise for a book/series. Sort of like that series SM Sterling wrote where Nantucket Island got randomly teleported back to 3000 years ago (or something like that) but with the added dynamic of it happening to a part of the world that's been at the bad end of the present/recent historical world order.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Somes J »

Just gonna repost some of my ideas from a "YOU reimagine Battlestar Galactica!" thread on SB.com.
I wrote:I've talked about this before, I saw a lot of what struck me as wasted potential with the Cylon religion.

Religious zealot AI I find implausible, but also potentially fascinating. I'm reminded of the Mayan Popol Vuh, where the gods tried and failed to make humanity a couple of times before getting it right. Let's say the Colonials have a similar myth. Now think about it from an advanced AI's perspective. They are superior to humanity in every way. More intelligent, stronger, more resilient, able to change bodies like we change clothes, immortal, capable of perfecting their bodies and minds in a way we can only do with our tools. I can easily imagine them coming to the conclusion that the same thing is happening again: that the gods intend for the inferior Corn Men to be replaced by the superior Iron Men, just like the Corn Men replaced the Stone Men before them (I'm using what I remember of how the sequence went in the Maya mythology there, for the actual show I'd probably modify it a bit).

Keep the idea of biologically human(ish) Cylon infiltrators, but they're just that, infiltrators, they don't run the Cylon society. Actually I'm thinking they're the lowest class of Cylon society, social mobility in that society consisting of perfecting your mind and body to bring yourself closer to the perfection of the Cylon god, with the infiltrators being some of the weakest and least intelligent and generally the suckiest Cylon forms. The infiltrators would aspire to be "promoted" into a superior machine form.

I kind of like the idea that the Cylon religion would be a little like the Friends of Wigner in Stephen Baxter's Exultant: the Cylon God would be the future Cylons reaching back in time to create a time loop leading to their own existence. Not sure whether I'd have this actually be true or not.

I'd keep the religious shenanigans in the Fleet, but probably wouldn't validate it at the end. During the show I like the idea of it being ambiguous, with people pointing out that a lot of the "miracles" they're seeing could theoretically be pulled off with advanced technology, with the Colonials seeing a lot of stuff they've been culturally conditioned to be receptive to in the same way Americans would be receptive to visions of Jesus, events in Revelation etc..

Not sure what I'd do beyond that.
I wrote:
Rockhound wrote:To maintain a viable population, the RTF needs to get shagging in a hurry, as their average population age won't be desirable (few young people, large number of people on the far end of their reproductive years), and will get worse.
I don't know if I'd go with this personally, I kind of like the idea that the RTF would be already overcrowded and having serious problems keeping the people they already have alive in the hostile environment of space. Their life support systems would be overburdened, the ships would be overcrowded, and they'd be running out of vital stuff at an alarming rate (even if everything is recycled no recycling system is going to be 100% efficient). Going with that idea, the last thing they need at the moment is adding even more people to the burden of the RTF's support system (and people who are going to be essentially useless parasites for years).

Edit: if I go with that idea if anything I would see the grim stuff come in the form of people suggesting that the population needs to be culled to conserve diminishing resources. The RTF population is probably big enough it could lose a lot of people before inbreeding becomes a serious issue.
I wrote:Just going to put down some more ideas for my version of the reboot:

I actually kind of like the idea of doing away with FTL entirely. The RTF would be on a long STL journey from wherever the Colonies are to Earth at high c-fractional speeds, being pursued all the way by a Cylon task force.

Largely I like this because no FTL automatically gets +1 ERECT SCI FI points with me (:p) and the ease with which the premise can be adapted to it tantalizes me, but having them mostly be in the deep void of space actually works nicely with that "RTF is overcrowded" theme before. The RTF faces not one deadly enemy but two: the Cylon task force following them and the harsh environment of interstellar space itself. Also it might help with explaining why the Cylons don't just crush the RTF; at the time the RTF starts running away most of the Cylons are busy genociding the rest of humanity, and the Cylons may not even have many units capable of keeping up with them (maybe, being immortal AIs, they don't see much of a point in getting up to speeds where time dilation is a serious factor).

My concern here is this might become boring as they can't stop at planets regularly. Then again, nBSG mostly focused on internal fleet stuff and conflict with the Cylons, right? Paralleling nBSG's arc of a brief stop on Kobol, a prolonged stay on New Caprica, and then finding Earth (or maybe even an Earth I and Earth II as in nBSG) that could fit pretty decently into an STL journey over a few dozen light years mostly at high fractions of c (so time dilation crunches it down to a few years of subjective experience). They'd need prior info to know to target those stars specifically but that works nicely - they're either following ancient knowledge or being guided by an unknown force.

I vaguely remember reading in the nBSG Wiki that they were originally thinking of having all the Colonies be on one planet but later ditched that in favor of the set-up we got. I think I might like to go with that idea - the Twelve Colonies as nations on a single planet. It nicely breaks with the way SF tends to treat planets like countries - a planet is plenty big to contain twelve nations. Then again, apparently these guys have a fair amount of ships capable of going at high fractions of c, so I'm not sure how that'd fit - maybe the Colonies are spread over two planets orbiting relatively distant binary stars (e.g. Zeta Reticuli).

As far as figuring out a fighter doctrine that makes sense, I'm reminded of discussions I've had with Destructionator XIII on SDN and elsewhere. He argued that actually space fighters make a fair amount of sense in a hard SF setting - in Earth orbit. Everything is close to everything else, so there's no need for warships to be able to operate for long periods of time on their own - they would likely be more like fighter planes, deploying on short missions and then returning to base. The aircraft carrier part of the set-up might come in with carrying these short-range warships longer ranges, between planets or solar systems. Maybe they're specialized anti-Cylon platforms developed after the Cylons left to wherever they went after their initial rebellion, in case the Colonies would have to fight an interstellar war against them. Not sure how ironclad this all is from a realism perspective but I think it's probably good enough for sci fi.

Finally, I really like the idea of the RTF finding modern day Earth at the end of their journey, and the show not ending there but either continuing on to some other resolution or going into a spin-off. I think the interactions, integration of the RTF into our society etc. could be pretty interesting. Yeah, yeah, Galactica 1980, just because the concept was poorly executed once doesn't mean it can't work.
I've actually occassionally thought of adapting some of these ideas to a universe of my own. Not sure if anything will ever come of that though.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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Hehe nice erect sci fi. I'd watch that though.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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Just posted by me on the same thread:
I wrote:Just to expand a bit on one reason why I like the idea of the RTF finding our Earth at the end and the story not stopping there.

If we keep the same general religious themes from nBSG (monotheist Cylons vs. polytheist Colonials) I think to the Colonials the Abrahamic religions are going to look awfully, uncomfortably close to worship of the Cylon god. Enough that some people are going to start wondering if there's a connection.

I'm pretty sure I'd do something with that. Not sure what though.
Also, going with the man vs. hostile environment theme, if I kept Cain's story I'd be tempted to seriously grim it up.

I remember watching that bit in Razor where they find some random ship full of refugees and take all the skilled people while leaving the rest behind and thinking about the dinner scene earlier where I was wondering where they were planning to get food, and thinking that incident could have been a lot more gruesome. Just because those people don't have any useful skills doesn't necessarily mean they're completely worthless ... the ship's recycling system isn't 100% efficient, sooner or later your little food cycle is going to need fresh organic material ... anybody up for some delicious Soylent Green?
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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^ Expanding some more:
I wrote:
Bryan wrote:The galaxy with life depends on if you want to capture the 70s version or not.
For my version, I'd be going with few habitable planets being seen. Partially this is just the nature of the journey at sublight speeds across space: stopping at a star would be a big thing. Partially I want to develop the theme that, as I said before, the RTF is really fighting two adversaries: the Cylons and the hostile environment of space. Play up the "Israelites wandering for 40 years in the desert before finding the promised land" vibe.

Kobol would be a nice very Earthlike world, but a place from which they are quickly chased from by Cylons. It would evoke the sadness of passing by a rich oasis in a hostile universe they cannot stay at for long.

If I keep a New Caprica equivalent, it would be a place that's at least marginal for human survival. Maybe an Earthlike planet that rotates on its side like Uranus, with exactly the sort of savage climate you'd expect of a world like that. Or maybe it's not an Earthlike world at all, maybe it's a lightless moon of a brown dwarf in interstellar space where they figure they can survive with tech (hey, abundant volatiles and geothermal energy so beats interstellar space by a mile) and the Cylons may overlook them. Whichever would be kinder on the budget (90 degree Earth you could probably film in a place like Canada and say that's the equator, frozen brown dwarf moon would probably be mostly interior sets, some CGI, and occassional night shots of guys in spacesuits).

On the Pegasus, there's a problem there with my premise - if they're carrying out guerilla warfare in the Colonial system there's not really much reason for them to ever meet the RTF. Maybe they're being chased by an overwhelming Cylon force into the RTF's arms, or maybe they're harassing the Cylon task force following the RTF. Anyway, if I go with something along the lines of nBSG, I actually have some ideas for making it very grim indeed, going with the "man vs. hostile environment" theme. To quote something I wrote on another board:
I remember watching that bit in Razor where they find some random ship full of refugees and take all the skilled people while leaving the rest behind and thinking about the dinner scene earlier where I was wondering where they were planning to get food, and thinking that incident could have been a lot more gruesome. Just because those people don't have any useful skills doesn't necessarily mean they're completely worthless ... the ship's recycling system isn't 100% efficient, sooner or later your little food cycle is going to need fresh organic material ... anybody up for some delicious Soylent Green?
I think I might really stress the suicidalness of Cain's plan, have the ship be falling to pieces, the crew near starvation and having resorted to above mentioned Donner Party-esque shenanigans etc.. Also, have a sort of Lord of the Flies dictatorship going in the crew, with most of the crew seeing how stupidly pointless and suicidal their "resistance" is and constantly on the verge of mutiny which is only surpressed by Cain's chosen enforcers, the most fanatical and those who do her bidding in exchange for extra privilidges like bigger rations. The Pegasus would represent the depths to which humanity could sink when pressed by their greatest enemies: the Cylons, the hostile environment, and their own insanity and selfishness. If anybody's read Stephen Baxter's Flood and remembers the passage where conditions in Tibet toward the end are described, that's the kind of vibe I'm going for here. "In Ugolino's hunger tower hard things happen." But maybe that would be too over the top grimdark.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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Some ideas involving a dieselpunk setting. This is distinct from the Terran Sphere.

Imperial General: Imperial generals are (naturally) the leaders of the Empire's armies, graduates from the Military Academies and hardened veterans who have worked their way up the command ladder. Imperial Generals typically stay at the rear, commanding and giving commands by radio from inside the armored hulls of battleships or landcrawlers, dug in command posts or fortresses. Because of this, they rarely engage in combat. High ranking officers get staff to make sure that their uniforms are in proper shape. Their armor is for show more than combat, but is still capable in a fight.

Imperial Conscripts: Conscripts are the lowest level in the Empire's Army and are drawn from the non citizen classes (citizens are immune from conscription). Conscripts serve as both soldiers and sailors, as well as other technical. Conscripts are given the short end of the stick in terms of what is invested in each individual soldier. They receive at most a third of the pay of a citizen soldier, citizen soldiers get priority in terms of rations and medical treatment and their equipment is of lower quality. Conscript infantry are armed with a Bayonet, a couple of grenades and either a lever action shotgun or a bolt action rifle, both of which are often hand-me-down weapons. They are given a steel helmet and a cuirass made of steel plates, cotton padding and warsilk (a special variety of silk with a higher amount of tensile strength compared to normal silk) that protects them against shrapnel and some bullet fire. Conscripts are often used in human wave tactics and typically engage enemy positions to hold them down so they can be destroyed by more mobile citizen soldiers. To keep conscripts loyal, they are stationed away from where they are recruited from and are given the opportunity to be promoted to citizen status. From every hundred conscript recruits, at least one who preforms well is promoted to Legionary with full citizenship at the end of training while further promotion is done. For the rest, it comes at the end of twelve years of service with an honorable discharge.

Imperial Legionaries: Imperial Legionaries are citizen soldiers, either volunteers or promoted conscripts. They are employed in a variety of roles that conscripts are not, Legionaries man machine guns and artillery, fly aircraft and drive ground vehicles. Legionary infantry are better equipped than their conscript counterparts, they have superior (and more expensive) body armor and also carry light machine guns and sub machine guns, as well as swords for hand to hand combat. Legionary units generally have a strong esprit de corps and are feared and are respected on the battlefield. Legionary officers lead conscripts into battle.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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Digging da conscript armor. Must be scary wielding bolt actions during the space age!
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Somes J »

Continuation on that "you redo nBSG" thing:
I wrote:Random episode idea:

The Children

Let's say we go with that idea I had earlier for how bio-Cylons are created. The process is relatively low-tech: the Cylons create a human baby, maybe with a few relatively minor genetic tweaks like that RL genetic defect that causes you to not feel pain and a faster than normal maturation rate so less time until they're mission-ready, and then raise it themselves, brainwashing it into serving them. Upon reaching adulthood they get a few minor implants (like a hidden radio transmitter), sometimes are heavily surgically altered to resemble a specific person they're supposed to replace, and dropped into human society to perform their mission.

Let's say the Cylons, thinking the chase may stretch on and such may be useful at some point, take an infiltrator "nursery" facility with them on the task force that is to hunt down the RTF.

Now let's say the people on the RTF learn about this. Somewhere in the Cylon fleet there are a bunch of human children, being brainwashed and groomed to become Cylon infiltrators.

I can imagine somebody proposing a rescue mission. Take the risk? It's probably a very dangerous mission with a low probability of success. Those kids may already be at the point where they're so brainwashed it'd take serious effort to deprogram them. Can they afford to waste good fighting men and weapons on such a humanitarian mission? The RTF has a hard enough time keeping its existing passengers alive, do they really want to add more mouths for no good reason? Should they even give a shit about those kids in the position they're in? But then again, what's a Big Damn Hero to do but try to do the right thing in the face of a situation like that? Do they really want to become the kind of people who can just sit by knowing somewhere some poor kid is being methodically programmed to be, say, a living bomb? And won't it be a good thing to deprive the Cylons of that resource? But then again, wouldn't it be simpler just to blow up that ship if that's the objective? And who says they'll really be doing those kids a favor by rescuing them? The Cylons can and do reward service to them with real immortality and eventual ascension to a superhuman machine god, after all.

I could see arguments for both sides that the audience would be sympathetic to.

Personally I think I might actually err on the side of "a rescue mission in our position is stupid", but I like the idea of the episode ending with one of the more straightforwardly heroic lead characters taking a handpicked team of volunteers and successfully pulling off a rescue mission. :D

Edit: as far as the credibility front on that goes ... let's say the nursery isn't really considered all that important by the Cylons, it's more something they took along on the off-chance it'd be useful, so it's at the fringes of their fleet and not very well protected (relatively speaking).
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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So I've been working through a couple of action scenes and I realize that, for the longest time, I've wanting to do a great parkour scene. It doesn't matter if the person is chasing someone or just freerunning away from a self-destruct mechanism.

The problem is, to enjoy parkour, as I see it, you have to be able to observe it in video form. As you watch, you take in all the aspects of the environment nearly instantly. When you're writing, the parkour doesn't seem impressive unless you know the environment the character is threading his or herself through. And there's the rub - you have to take time away to describe the 'terrain' your character is covering, but that ruins any sort of speed your written parkour sequence has - you can't capture a breathless chase/running scene if you've got these long paragraphs describing a staircase here or a jungle of pipes there.

I guess this bounces upon a skill for punchy, succinct narration one would have to develop, but in the mean time, is there any happy ground between 'knowing and appreciating the environment the parkour takes place over' and 'syntactically speedy action scene'?
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Re: Random ideas (again)

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I suppose this is strictly a personal thing but I always preferred my action scenes speedy. Overly elaborate descriptions of the environment runs into the two problems that 1) the pace of the story slows down and 2) this makes it appear as if the writer has a low expectation of the reader's own fantasy.

A good action scene then should follow the descriptive pace of the rest of the story: if you don't typically go into detail describing people, narrative environments or street scenes, then don't do it with action scenes either because you'll appear patronizing.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Zor »

Image

Fantasy/Medieval Idea

One of a fair number of screaming fanatics that come out of the Western Valleys. Lying inside the great worldspine, these lands were once home to fairly peaceful tribes of semi nomadic herders. Then came the refugees. Large numbers of men and women, displaced by war and banditry that fed on war. Those that fled north had few ideas of what was up there but had no alternative. In waves, they made their way north and displaced the natives. They resisted, but among the refugees were warriors, broken and desperate but in positioned of steel weapons and armor as well as crossbows. Most importantly they butchered their herds, not so much out of deliberate attempt at eradication as they needed meat. Valley by valley they displaced the original peoples, either conquering them, integrating them into the ranks of refugees, forcing them onto more marginal lands or exterminating them. They came wave after wave.

The newcomers never the less continued to struggle once they settled. The summers were harsh, rain was a rarity and the lakes that can be found here and there are for the most part salty and undrinkable. The refugees adapted as well as they could, but work was backbreaking. To support their population, they devised sets of complex irrigation systems and terraces to cultivate as much land as possible. All night soil was collected. Coal and iron were abundant, but wood was rare. Eventually some trade was established, ceramics and metalwork was exported and traded for timber, food and slaves. These were generally not kept by the leaders as sexual playthings but rather as disposable workers to toil until they succumbed to starvation. The locals saw this as a blessing, as it meant that their lives would have just a little bit less toil to them. These actions let the population gradually expand, despite bad nutrition, overwork, disease and poor living conditions. To oversee these projects, complex governments arose. They oversaw projects and rationed to make sure that people did not starve to death. Eventually, a faith emerged and spread among these communities. This was a monotheistic religion, worshiping an all powerful sky god. Those who lived quiet orderly lives and obeyed their masters would eventually be rewarded with a pleasant afterlife. Those leaders who led ragged bands of desperate refugees to anywere that they could be safe were re-imagined as holy prophets leading a chosen people to salvation. Through preachers, subtle political manuvering, the offer of increased bounty and a few small scale and brief wars (all started by those who resisted this new faith) they managed to unite the valley under one theocratic government.

At first it was a peaceful faith, but then came the bandits. As the trade routes improved, more and more bandits raided, eventually turning on raiding the villages. Many of them escaped slaves. As they increased in number, more and more provisions were made to defend vital supplies and the people. This led to the emergence of armed guards and patrols to hunt them down. Eventually, this turned the priesthood more radical and more militaristic, as well as more xenophobic. After a couple of generations, some of the leaders began to call for moves to hunt down and eradicate the heathans that lived outside their boarders. A voice which grew in strength and size. From this emerged the pilgram warriors, which went on crusades to claim new land and spread their faith and the influence of the ruling priests.

Pilgram Warriors are mostly volunteers. Family sizes have increased since the begining of these crusades and their are no shortage of those who seek to absole themselves of sins, see the crusade as a sacred duty or simply desire the loot and prospect of advancement. Conscription happens as well when the need is pressing, and criminals are often dragooned in to absolve their sins. Some Pilgram warriors (generally from the upper classes) are selected to serve as cavalry, pikemen or crossbowmen, but most simply serve in loose units of light infantry. These poor souls are deemed to have marginal usefulness until they prove themselves. At the start, they are a large warhammer, a dagger and a helmet and whatever rags of clothing they have are dyed a greyish blue and have the image of their sky god stenciled on. These poor wretches are marched out alongside on crusades, which happens every few decades. The light infantry are organized into groups of 100-200 led by a warrior priest. If these units are sucessful, they are given more armor as their god has clearly shown them favor.

They are ruthless in their ambitions and well known for their willingness to fight and die for their god. Those that they conquer are often faced with enslavement and forced conversions, while their lands are looted. This never the less is often their undoing. While they haved claimed some territory outside their Valleys, they have also made enemies with basically everyone they have encountered. If they attack a settlement, this generally means that they will have to go through alot of men because they rarely defend. A set of castles has been set up to keep them bottled in. Attempts have been made to survert the influence of the priestly class that runs their kingdom, while this has led to some dissent, it has also led to the rise of a fearsome secret police force to keep the population in line.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Somes J »

Copy/pasting from my personal uni message board, an idea I'm playing with for a world there:

---

The original inspiration for this was thinking a little about Vulcan in Star Trek and realizing, you know, if you look at this society at all critically it starts to look pretty dystopian. Consider, we've seen biological Vulcans raised without their "non-emotionalism" philosophy - Romulans - and they generally seem to behave pretty much like humans. So their non-emotionalism is cultural, imposed through training/discipline/indoctrination on creatures with human-like minds. Imagine what it would be like to live in a society where you're not allowed to express any emotions. Sound pleasant? I think even some of the more hard-core monastic groups here on Earth would balk at that, and these guys apparently expect this lifestyle of everybody. As near as I can tell, with a little filling in the lines, their philosophy emerged in response to a period of warfare and strife and seems to be pretty much that their race is naturally evil and requires this pretty extreme lifestyle in order not to act like bloodthirsty savages. That's ... pretty much the backstory and philosophy of the bad guys in the movie Equilibrium, only without the Prozium - so much so that it makes me wonder if it's a coincidence, or if somebody else had the same thought before me. And hey, remember Sybok in Star Trek 5? The guy who disagreed with their philosophy - and had to leave the planet because of that! Really, thinking about this I'm kind of astounded at thinking back to SDN trying to paint the Federation as some dystopian communist state - but he totally missed this low-hanging fruit! Seriously, this society has some serious nightmare fuel potential, and it's kind of weird now to think about how nobody in-universe seems to catch on to how creepy that place is.

So, I thought, it might be interesting to take a society based on the same apparent ideas and assumptions as Vulcan Surakism and show what it might realistically look like:

--------

First off, Surakism has a radical movement born from trauma written all over it, let's go with that. I'm thinking of making this two-fold:

The first trauma is ancient; a deep historical past of a primitive feudal warrior society with human sacrifice religions. Then, at some point this society had something equivalent to the Christianization of Europe; a successful new religion got started and gradually overtook society from the bottom-up. This would provide a good historical narrative for the ruling regime, paralleling the one the Vulcans seem to have; in ancient times people were terrible and savage, and then their Surak-equivalent came along and taught them the way of peace (the reality of course would be more complicated).

The religion in question I'm thinking is something somewhat similar to Buddhism. The source of suffering is want, desire, and the will to dominance, and restraining and giving up these things is how you attain fulfillment and escape the cycle of reincarnation. The two pillars of the religion are reverence for life and control of the passions.

The second trauma I'm thinking parallels that of our earlier twentieth century; traumatic disillusionment with the idea of rationalism and progress making everything better, as it yields the fruit of industrialized mass slaughter, apocalyptic weaponry, and psuedo-scientifically justified depravity. I'm thinking maybe a WWII-like conflict but more balanced, ending in the wrecking of much of the world and the explosion of a large number of nuclear bombs, or perhaps a Cold War equivalent that went hot, with much of the world's population being killed as a result and civilization set back. And there should be something like Nazi racial ideology in there somewhere, to make people freak at how easily civilization can descend into barbarism, hmm, maybe some hybrid of Social Darwinism and karma-reincarnation ideas (look, being born into an inferior class is obviously punishment for crimes committed in past lives so it's totally OK to do anything we want to these people). Maybe this ideology would draw inspiration from the ancient pre-"Christianization" societies, that would feed into a religious revival narrative nicely - things got so bad because people lost the true way and started drifting back to the bad old ways.

So, modern, call it Karusism (Surak spelled backwards - hey, that name actually sounds decent, maybe I'll even keep it):

The source of suffering is want, desire, the will to dominance, and the destruction of life. Man is naturally evil and prone to these things.

The two central principles:

Reverence for life: one is to take the lives of other living/feeling/thinking things as little as possible. Vegetarianism is mandated. No animal products (leather etc.) are used except those that can be taken without killing the animal. I'm thinking actually a lot leather etc. might be taken from the corpses of humans who died naturally, as this is considered more ethical/better. I'm thinking probably capital punishment would not be practiced, and abortion would be banned.

Control of desire/passion: sensual indulgence, "bad" emotions (e.g. anger), and I'm thinking maybe just strong emotions in general are to be avoided. I'm thinking we would call the regime anti-materialist/consumerist and sexually puritanical. They may have clothing restrictions along the lines of what Islam has (though equal opportunity - head-scarf equivalents for both sexes). Pleasurable things are to be taken in restrained doses, and being happy with less is better. There may be some aescetic/monastic groups that take it to similar extremes as Star Trek Vulcans (always maintain a neutral facial expression!) but I doubt the common practice would be anything remotely close to that extreme, partially because I doubt the feasibility of imposing something like that on the general population, and partly because I want this to be its own thing.

Note: I'm thinking despite what you might think from the anti-abortion anti-sex thing, they're actually pretty gender-egalitarian. They're pretty big on the spiritual, and hence fundamental similarity of all people. Making a dystopian theocratic regime misogynist is such an obvious trick I'm glad to avoid it.

The taking of life is extremely socio-religiously unclean, and relegated to a special class. I'm thinking the regime's will is imposed by a specialized class of killers a bit like Janissaries, maybe taken from orphans who end up in the hands of the state (given abortion would be banned this might serve as an alternate means of getting rid of unwanted children). These untouchables are segregated from society, and perhaps are sterilized as it would be blasphemous for them to create life. I'm tentatively thinking of having them be distinguished by wearing red gloves, to symbolize they have blood on their hands, hence being known as Red Hands (an alternate color possibility - white, the color of snow, winter, human bones, hence death - yes, I'm pretty sure I ripped off RL East Asia there, but hey). They also wear mirrored masks, to symbolize that any violence they inflict is the violence of their opponents reflected back at themselves (hey, faceless legions of terror, with a nice cultural-symbolic reasoning behind it!)*.

I'm thinking the regime wouldn't force everybody to convert, there would be significant minorities of non-believers, who would be exempted from some of the rules, for instance being allowed to eat meat and consume alcohol and other intoxicants (the latter would be forbidden to believers on the whole self-control/discipline thing). The downside is they would face restrictions, like being confined to segregated reservations and ghettos. I'm thinking part of the rational of this would be to encourage them to convert, and part would be that they are feared - the regime's rules are justified on the idea that humans are naturally prone to evil and control and discipline is necessary to prevent bloodshed, anarchy, and freely practiced evil, so people who reject that control would be treated with suspicion. I imagine denying nonconformists/believers weapons would be a big thing.

I suspect this regime might not react well to contact with other human worlds - just by existing and being decent places to live other human societies would undermine some of their justifications for rule for starters.

* I'll make a confession: I got the idea from Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Telling". In the book, there was an offhand mention about how the leaders of the theocratic dystopian regime on Earth wore "mirrored masks." For a moralistic regime there's some rather neat potential symbolism in that, and it was the only thing described about that state that sounded interesting (everything else about it sounded completely generic). I think I've added enough new dimension to the fairly nonspecific concept that the appropriation isn't problematic.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Siege »

I don't know man. I mean, it's an interesting thought exercise... But at the same time I'm running into the same problem that I have with the 'lol Federation is a secret commie dystopia' that some people dabble in, that being that it so obviously runs counter to everything ST is, if not actually portraying, then at the very least trying to portray. I suppose that for some kind of Mirror Universe setup you could go with a 'Librian Vulcans with Starfleet Janissaries' setup, but to me it frankly sounds pretty pointless trying to twist what's obviously supposed to be a race of pseudo zen monks into a vile regime of dogmatic hardasses.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Somes J »

Siege wrote:I don't know man. I mean, it's an interesting thought exercise... But at the same time I'm running into the same problem that I have with the 'lol Federation is a secret commie dystopia' that some people dabble in, that being that it so obviously runs counter to everything ST is, if not actually portraying, then at the very least trying to portray. I suppose that for some kind of Mirror Universe setup you could go with a 'Librian Vulcans with Starfleet Janissaries' setup, but to me it frankly sounds pretty pointless trying to twist what's obviously supposed to be a race of pseudo zen monks into a vile regime of dogmatic hardasses.
Which is why I'm thinking of doing a world inspired by these musing for my own universe - it would be my own thing, in a rather different context, so I'm free to play with the idea without people giving exactly the objection you do - it's not supposed to be Vulcan, simply a world of my own creation inspired by some thoughts I had on it.

I realize that gets into an opposite problem: "rip off!" - but I think I can easily make this world distinct enough that will not be a problem. Here it actually helps that it's so against the spirit of the original* - so much of it is already my own creation by default! And besides it being dystopian, there are other significant differences in the concept I have and Vulcan. For one thing I'm going with another reinterpretation - Vulcan "logic" isn't really about logic at all, it's about self-control, the word that gets translates as "logical" really means something more like "cool-headed." For another, I really doubt the realistic plausibility of getting the general populace to accept something as extreme as the lifestyle philosophy Spock seems to follow - so in this world, they don't. There might be monks and aescetics who take it that far, but it's only a small minority, and maybe even a controversial one (there being plenty of people even in the religion who go "those guys are crazy, that's really not what this is supposed to be about"), the average person follows something more like Epicureanism with a strong emphasis on the "modesty" part.

As far as "what's the point"? When I originally had my thoughts on how Vulcan might "realistically" be I thought "you know, if you took out the part about it being Vulcan this would actually be a rather interesting and somewhat original dystopia in its own right."

* I'm not actually as sure about this as you seem to be; Spock dealing with the fact he had an emotional side that he repressed seemed to be a running theme in TOS and part of what made the character memorable, and I didn't really get the impression the writers had an unambiguously positive take on the Vulcan "solution" to that (to completely repress it). It's been a while since I watched the movie but I got the impression the rejection of the Kohlinar path of extreme non-emotionalism in the first Star Trek movie was a significant character moment. Granted they seemed to be doing that as part of the theme of his Vulcan half and human half being in tension; I think I might go off from their original intent in thinking that inner struggle probably wasn't anything unique to Spock.

Edit: also, you said something about Vulcans being a race of psuedo zen monks - I don't know, I think there might be some significant meta-commentary in pointing out that vision is actually pretty antihuman. If not an actual criticism of the philosophies that inspired Vulcan*, I think there's something significant to comment on about people coming up with such a really fundamentally antihuman philosophy and thinking of it as benign.

* I'll admit I was partly inspired by thinking you know, people do like to respond to secularist criticisms of Christianity by saying "oh yeah, why don't you ever pick on other religions, like Buddhism!", and while I generally think that's an annoying cheap shot, I do think there might be something there. When I think of theocratic dystopias in popular imagination and culture, it's pretty much Abrahamism that springs to mind - what about an evil Buddhism-inspired theocracy for a change.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Booted Vulture »

Random story idea that keeps coming to mind for Forlorn Hope. Especially after watching Bad Boys II. (I know, I know, this not a good pedigree for an idea)

Eric Rivers as undercover dude investigating space smuggling in a sci-fi city. There are two key elements to this;

Rivers himself. For those who don't know he's basically a black mildly psychic james bond kept on a very short leash by the government. Which makes him way ideal for undercover work. The mild psychicness is supposed to make more oratory and trusted and of course he is better at navigating his way through shady work and double dealing criminals and so forth. And if couple with a stronger psychic as a controller, there's no need for wires or surveillance that may be detectable by the criminals he's busting. No amount of frisking can get a wire that's not there.

And second is the idea of the city itself. The main spaceport for a planet, its called Cable City and is really two citys, one on the planet and a set of space habitats and they're linked by lots and lots of space elevators. Thus smuggling stuff down in a risky business and contraband is literally worth its weight/mass in payment. Because you have to stick the payment in the upgoing pod to counteract the drugs/gold/illegal tech/whatever it is you're smuggling that going down to the ground. Otherwise the space elevator don't work so well and it all gets noticed.


Of course aside from these points I don't have a real plot in mind. Presumably it would involve Eric and Emma trying to bust open a crime ring. While REVOLVER BAYLOR is double dealing somehow.

Thoughts?


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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Somes J »

Booted Vulture wrote:Thus smuggling stuff down in a risky business and contraband is literally worth its weight/mass in payment. Because you have to stick the payment in the upgoing pod to counteract the drugs/gold/illegal tech/whatever it is you're smuggling that going down to the ground. Otherwise the space elevator don't work so well and it all gets noticed.
Sounds like a neat idea to me, but I see a fridge logic issue: if the paymnent is less heavy than the contraband or visa versa couldn't you just put some weights in with it to even things out?

Maybe space on the elevators is so valuable you don't want to waste it on anything useless if you can avoid it at all, hence an incentive for mass-balanced smuggling trade even if isn't strictly speaking a necessity.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Booted Vulture »

Random ideas! Power Armour! Big honking power amour! how do you integrate into a military! Assuming you're not replacing your entire infantry force with them.
  • Separate Units/Services
    You split your army into units where some are light infantry. (normal dudes) and heavy infantry. (power armour) I have to admit I quite like this, since its like specialist units in today's armies. Also I just think the term heavy infantry despite falling into disuse after the middle ages, sounds freakin' badarse
  • Combined Units/Services
    Every infantry unit has some power armour and some normal dudes. Say like machine guns today. You have a power amour suit forming the core firepower of each fire team, with the other dudes basically there to screen it.
  • Elitism
    Officers get power armour. Peons get jack shit. Might be ok for spaaaace empires. Plus it could be interesting, they'd be different types of armour different type of leaders. Leader from the front you carry shits loads of armour and shielding to take hits for your men. Or if you lead from the rear. Pimped out comm units and maybe an excessive of missles/nade chuckers/arty to provide your men with your own CAS equivilent.
Thoughts?
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive. You can have Combined Arms units with regular infantry and some power armors working together. You have fully Mechanized Heavy Armor Brigades or whatever that are all in armor and totting heavy ass shit. You can have Light Recon units that have no power armor at all but work as badass commandos and scouts. All of them being part of this greater force.

3 is just painting a target on your power armor troops.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Ford Prefect »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:3 is just painting a target on your power armor troops.
That's not really all that different from a situation with a mixed force like in scenario 2. In the end if your officer is a harder target which takes more effort to take down and so draws fire from the grunts that's not necessarily a bad thing (though not necessarily smart, of course).
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

But not only is he a harder tougher target, he'll also be the one having to haul the heavy weapons and doing the specialist things. So your harder tougher target officer will also, aside from officering, be doing the machinegunning and the hauling of anti-tank weapons and other heavy power armor specialized gear and he'll be the one using these too. Talk about the concentration of roles.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by speaker-to-trolls »

I think Shroom has a good point with the concentration of roles thing, I think a Space Empire would probably be more likely to use a combination of 1 and 3, with both the officers being armoured and with having 'officer squads', which are in effect heavy infantry but with the members all officially being officers or at least having authority over the unarmoured grunts in some way, should they find themselves working in direct contact with light infantry squads during a battle.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Mobius 1 »

I always conceived carnage mechs in TE as being the equivalent of a company's heavy weapons platoon - large enough to be effective when autonomously but best when they have to full platoons of their buddy marines acting in concert with them.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Magister Militum »

Some fusion of 1 and 2 is ideal, depending on the circumstances.
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Re: Random ideas (again)

Post by Booted Vulture »

To clarify. In number 1. I wasn't think they'd be totally seperate. Obviously a good armed force is going to use combined arms. You'd have light infantry units and heavy infantry units but they'd work together the same way as infantry and tanks do today.

Maybe you'd have a Infantry Battalion with some light infantry companies and some heavy infantry companies that would be deployed together/apart at the CO's discretion.

eta: i noted another problem with my theory in 2. Equating the power armoured dude to the machine gun is silly. If the machine gunner gets killed. The Assistant with pick it up and keep it firing if possible. You can't really do the same for the power armour. Because if the dude insides dead. He's hard to extact. And also the PA's probably so much scrap.
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