Let's talk villains.

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Destructionator
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Let's talk villains.

Post by Destructionator »

I need more villains. They need to be awesome villains, but I shouldn't just copy A CHAR! (Despite him being like the ultimate villain to which all villains should aspire.) I can't just copy Baron Harkonnen either.

I have one villain like dude: Sir Michael, who is an old friend of the self-insert who later does a FaceHeelTurn for political reasons, but he is still a good guy, and his politics don't make him do things that are horribly bad, and he doesn't condone anyone else doing bad things.

Not really the greatest villain, but he could always become one as time goes on, if I can justify the development down the path of evil.


You could argue the self insert and his wife are villains, as I've discussed a bit in other threads.


I used to have three more big villains in the story, but they've all been removed. There was God (driven by ambition), the Devil (driven by tradition), their underlings who all varied from good to bad and honourable to not, but they have all been removed along with the main fantasy elements.

There was also the douchebag originally behind the A'millian holocaust, driven simply by vile racism, removed since he was too two-dimensional to me. (heh too two to)

Actually, bringing back the three of them might be a good call, even without any fantasy elements. I rather liked the god/devil characters and that story in general, which had people slowly realizing how each side was deceiving them and how really pointless their struggle has been (and of course everyone else is in the middle of it), but still many carried on. A great deal of the villain tropes were included there, including many I like.

That just might be cool. Though having a long tradition worked into the sf storyline would be hard to do, so some adjustment would be needed.

I also love villainy where everyone is just looking out for himself; Final Fantasy Tactics had a story like that and it was awesome. Tossing in a few people like that would be fun.

And then A CHAR! God I love that man. And I generally agree with whatever side he's on. Hail Zeon. (subverted there as I also agreed with the Federation in the original - I liked them both. And Garma didn't really deserve his fate; Char can be an ass. But he is sooo cool.) Good AEUG. Hail Neo Zeon.

I'm pretty sure I do want a huge human/post-human war now, which will need its convincing villains on both sides. That will need assloads of work.

And I need good guys who turn somewhat bad so I can have my awesome "The Baroness' Decision" episode and its predecessor, and of course her long, long lead-up as a good guy. And she needs an evil boss who is still good enough to be followed by a good guy. That will be fun.



So yeah, bed time right now, but the post AW 3100 world is going to have a marked change - the world will change from one of scientific progress and optimism driving the storyline to one of villain characters driving the storyline (which is good, since the AW 3100-AW 4000 period has virtually no development whatsoever right now, and going into science there is hard, since extrapolating so far into the future isn't fun at all, so going character based at that point will drive it forward).

After sleepx0ring I will probably discuss the old god/devil storyline and see about how it can be adapted into a pure sf setting, then move onto other villains.


If you want to see yourself as a villain in here, describe your character!
His Certifiable Geniusness, Adam D. Ruppe (My 'verse)
Marle: Lucca! You're amazing!
Lucca: Ain't it the truth! ... Oh, um...I mean...
Marle: Enough with the false modesty! You have a real gift! I would trade my royal ancestry for your genius in a heartbeat!

"I still really hate those pompous assholes who quote themselves in their sigs." -- Me
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Re: Let's talk villains.

Post by Destructionator »

The God/Devil storyline was originally written to be a FF style video game story, and thus the villains are more focused to be boss battles rather than something like a national leader.

The basic storyline goes that your main character is a chosen one (of course) who's job is to defend the universe from the invading evil. You work for one of God's lieutenants (no one except for the upper trusted folks in heaven have ever actually seen God, so you never deal with him directly, and as the game goes on, you start to question if he is really there at all), and are tasked with bringing down evil strongholds and eventually sealing the big bad himself, like all your predecessors has done.

You help fight off hellish invasion forces at heaven's gates, and even invoke the ire of Hell's Premiers, the 12 finest warriors the devil has to offer, considered immortal for millenia. If you over level your character, you can start to actually kill them off, but if not, you repel them and continue the adventure doing your holy duty.

But, unlike (most) your predecessors, you start to learn that the situation isn't actually so black and white. Your bosses aren't the paragon of goodness that they claim to be and the enemy isn't pure evil like you were led to believe - some of those Premiers are actually pretty good and honourable folks....

As it turns out, you were the aggressor all along! Some of the demons were always willing to talk out their differences (including that "invasion force" at the pearly gates), but the 'defenders' would never believe them (Villains always lie, right?) and would keep pounding their strongholds.

You can bring their negotiation offers back to the boss (or ignore them and attack, ending the game prematurely; I love multiple endings in games), who then labels you a heretic for doubting the word of God and conspiring with the devil, casting you out of heaven and stripping you of your title and god given magic (which isn't all of it; your character has quite a bit of innate power as well, but the awesomely strong Paladin character class is weakened among other things).

Now, in addition to fighting the demons of hell and their followers (including Dark Knights who are awesome), you have to fight angels from heaven and their followers (including Holy Knights who are awesome). Not everyone hunts you down though; you still have a lot of old friends among the angels and holy knights who go easy on you.

You start to think that maybe you, and many other people, were completely duped: that God is in fact the big bad and the devil is a good guy. But the hellish forces still do some evil things... maybe God was a bit extreme, but it is clear that the demons are still mostly bad guys.

Thus, the ending of the game is still storming Hell itself and taking down the devil, but you can avoid fights with many of the premiers and random battles if you talk to them well enough. Despite your (thankless) attempts, the cycle continues on, but you do at least have peace for a while.

A side quest, however, does include a near unwinnable battle with God (think Ruby and Emerald Weapon on one side and Omega Weapon on the other both attacking you at once :P), which changes the ending if you can do it. Killing God, the Devil, and their most fanatic lieutenants actually breaks the cycle, giving the world a lasting cosmic peace. But it is a lot of awesome boss battles.



So now, the characters in the bunch:

God - an ambitious douchebag who wants to be rid of his opposition, and will manipulate people to that end. He must die for the happy ending.

The Devil - an ambitious douchbag who wants revenge on his old boss and usurp his trone, and will manipulate people to that end. He dies.

God's top lieutenant - an ambitious douchebag who was trying to use his bosses authority to his own end. God permits this only because it suits him as well, and will throw him under the bus if he needs a scapegoat. He dies.

God's next lieutenant (commonly called the God of Magic) - a genuinely good guy who honestly believes he is going the right thing the whole time. He lives and helps the player at times after your expulsion, but is never trusting of the hellish forces.

God's final lieutenant - a good guy who just wants everyone to get along, but is marginalized for being a pacifist hippie in a time of important war. He lives, but in obscurity.

The top angel - a fanatic who hunts the player down after the fall out of a desire to maintain order and please his God (more of the latter than the former). Very closed minded. He dies if you take the kill god sidequest.

Lesser angels and demons - some fanatics, some nice. Many die (random battles), many help you.


The Devil's top lieutenant - fights just out of tradition; he has always fought heavenly forces and thinks he always will and nothing will ever stop that short of exterminating the other side, just like how it has always been. One of the final boss battles to the game. He dies.

The Premiers: One is a bastard, just plain evil. You kill him. One is an honourable foe, fighting cleanly and thinking her side is right. You kill her, but later regret it (WhatASenselessWasteOfDemonicLife). Another was the former's age old lover, who hunts you down for personal revenge. You eventually kill him (another senseless waste of life). There are a couple punch clock villains in the bunch, who do evil, but just because it is their job (they are in actuality selfish in the extreme). Killing them is optional. Then of course there is the affiably evil guy, who is completely nice in person, but is really the big bad's most vile Dragon.


I just need a Chessmaster and a MagnificiantBastard to round it all off. The player character could be one....


Anyway, when I finish my cRPG engine, I'll probably make this into the game it should be, but in the mean time, adapting some of the villains and maybe plot elements into this 'verse would be good stuff.

I'll start discussing that when next I post.
His Certifiable Geniusness, Adam D. Ruppe (My 'verse)
Marle: Lucca! You're amazing!
Lucca: Ain't it the truth! ... Oh, um...I mean...
Marle: Enough with the false modesty! You have a real gift! I would trade my royal ancestry for your genius in a heartbeat!

"I still really hate those pompous assholes who quote themselves in their sigs." -- Me
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Re: Let's talk villains.

Post by Destructionator »

I watched Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket earlier today and it was, as expected from UC Gundam, awesome. There was really only one villain in the whole thing: Colonel Killing (meaningful name!). Everyone else were really nice guys and Chris was like the megacute.

Moving on, that little series was splendid in so many ways. Just one real villain drove the whole thing to its very sad ending (I literally cried, but in fairness, I do that often), and he wasn't even a great villain and barely had any screen time.

This makes me question if this thread is really necessary, but without the Zeon War for Independence (Hail Zeon!) in the background, it wouldn't have worked. Now, that war wasn't really started by nor perpetuated by super villains either, and the vast majority of the soldiers in it, and even the leaders, were good folks (seriously, name one evil Zeon soldier, excluding Kycelia (who is arguable) and Gihren (who aside from his mild Hitler streak isn't so bad either - great villain). The closest I can get is M'Quve, but he isn't so much evil as just a bit of a douche).

So yeah, I'll need to continue the discussion in this thread, but cool that the pressure is off a bit; I can still just have good guys all around and make it work. Which is good: if I want a believale FaceHeelTurn (and I do want at least two), the other side has to be compelling.

Many of the more sympathetic villain tropes need the evil side to be not so bad too for the character to still remain objectively justifiable. For example, the honourable foe - if his side is truly evil, he must be either evil himself or some kind of idiot to still follow them. Or at the least, weak willed.

Having no real evil also makes for awesome stories. Like in 0080, the main tragedy is the death of a Zeon soldier - a man on the 'bad' side. If the Zeon were utterly evil, he'd be evil by extension (serving evil is still evil). His death would certainly still be tragic (death almost always is; hell even Darth Vader's (weak villain IMO, btw) death was even tragic), but not as much; you might be able to say it was justified. That takes a bit of the bite out.



Anyway, bed time, but I'll return to adapting my god/devil tropey villains as promised tomorrow.
His Certifiable Geniusness, Adam D. Ruppe (My 'verse)
Marle: Lucca! You're amazing!
Lucca: Ain't it the truth! ... Oh, um...I mean...
Marle: Enough with the false modesty! You have a real gift! I would trade my royal ancestry for your genius in a heartbeat!

"I still really hate those pompous assholes who quote themselves in their sigs." -- Me
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Re: Let's talk villains.

Post by Destructionator »

Well, I've decided to go ahead and use my god/devil story for its original purpose: a video game storyline. So I won't actually be discussing that any further here; any discussion about that story will take place elsewhere. If you want to know how it turns out, wait about a year and play the game when it comes out :P

So what I really need is to see about changing the former arch-nemesis into someone utterly worthy of the title. Without making him much less sympathetic; without ruining what I have that I like.

Turning the right and noble Lady Marie into a kind of (reluctant) villain would also be awesome. She seems most ideal for the omfg scene I have in mind.

Anyway, back to the arch-nemesis (god that's such a badass term). Currently, he is hardly villainous at all:

designated protaginists: "There is no way for mankind to live forever except under the direct control of us, the superior, chosen race of Zeon!"

him: "People should be allowed to make up their own minds."

them: "Now is the time for mankind to stand up for the future!"

him: "Have you even considered that mankind might not want your future?!"

them: "HAIL ZEON!"

him: "We won't submit to your demands!"

them: "Hail Zeon! Hail Zeon!"



The villain ball seems to be in the other team's possession. It is tempting to make him extreme in the same way: one side might be bringing dictatorship to everyone whether they like it or not and the other is brining democracy to everyone whether they like it or not, but that doesn't really make any sense.

Meh, I'll just be the villain for a while.


Anyway, DALEKS HAVE NO CONCEPT OF ELEGANCE
this is obvious
His Certifiable Geniusness, Adam D. Ruppe (My 'verse)
Marle: Lucca! You're amazing!
Lucca: Ain't it the truth! ... Oh, um...I mean...
Marle: Enough with the false modesty! You have a real gift! I would trade my royal ancestry for your genius in a heartbeat!

"I still really hate those pompous assholes who quote themselves in their sigs." -- Me
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